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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...) - Page 2843  

post #42631 of 48312

Nice rubber.:)

post #42632 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meurice View Post
 

Hi Dino, that is how I see it and I am suprised that the Nautilus has become more or less the "Only acceptable Patek for people who already own several dumbbell-sized sport Rolex watches".

Well, as I mentioned in a prior post, the Nautilus was long thought of as unworthy of the Calatrava Cross. However with rumors Patek was discontinuing production of steel watches, just after production of the 3712 was in production suddenly the Nautilus was the darling the the brand, people were willing to pay well over list to get one.   Eventually, everyone learned the Nautilus would continue on in the forms of the 5711, 5712, and their offshoots, but a younger generation had a different perception after the rumors and frenzy about the model. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meurice View Post
 

QUESTION

 

Looking for grail/exit watch, want to buy pre-owned, short list narrowed down to two, please help me solving the following conundrum:

 

PP 5130G, ...

OR

 

PP 5396G, in its more recent, non-sector-dial inclination. About EUR 33,000 upwards.

A statement of a watch. Dial so plain I will probably never get tired of it. Price difference to 5130 not to be neglected, funds could be diverted into other purchases (need new SAB briefcase, etc). QUESTION FOR BELLIGERO: What to you think about the date windows - too narrow?

 

Initially I thought I wanted a RG watch but I now believe this whole RG thing is a fad which will go way sooner or later. I travel a lot and a white metal is much more under-the-radar. I have a small collection of Hermes cufflinks in sterling silver which would go along with WG very well. 

 

 

BONUS QUESTION:

 

What are your views on the 5035P annual cal?

The 5130 in its current form is better than the original, which was a tough sell for most dealers.  One of my local AD's hated the originals as he was stuck with a bunch of them even when offering big discounts.  The current model looks a bit better to me, but I still don't love it and some of the JLC models seem a bit more functional.

 

In addition, I don't see the use of RG as a fad or thing that will go away.  Many makers now only offer dress watches in WG or RG.  In addition, even for 2 tone watches, brands like VC, AP, Patek and Rolex, have all added steel and RG watches to their line ups.  Depending on the age of the wearer I often like RG more than YG because its less brassy, a bit more understated, and IMHO allows younger collectors to wear a gold watch without it looking like something they borrowed from their dad or their boss.  WG, I just don't love.  It doesn't have the heft, purity, or durability of PT, it looks a bit like steel, and with some makers plating the WG with rhodium depending on how rough you are on watches it may need replating to remain white, rather than show its more natural gray undertone. I've owned a WG watch, but sold it have have little desire to own another WG watch.  

 

Overall, I like the more classic dial of the 5396, but I wish the date window didn't cut into the 24 hour indicator.  It detracts from what would have been a more appealing design to me.  I would rather they put a date subdial on it rather than the 24 hour subdial, and maybe give just a day night indicator that didn't require a full subdial.  But then it might have looked too much like the true perpetual calendars of the Patek past and they didn't want that, plus it may have required a bit of redesigning an existing movement.

 

As for the 5035, its dial never really appealed to me.  My father considered one briefly, but chose a different model at the time.

Anyway wishing you luck on whatever you decide. 

post #42633 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Nice rubber.smile.gif

Only the finest rubber for TWAT
post #42634 of 48312

Not a very inspiring reply, as it basically confirms my worries:-)

 

So, what about a 5146G instead? Too pedestrian due to bland Arial numbers?

post #42635 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meurice View Post
 

Not a very inspiring reply, as it basically confirms my worries:-)

 

So, what about a 5146G instead? Too pedestrian due to bland Arial numbers?

 

Is there a reason you're only looking at Pateks?   You don't seem to love any of them.  Not a bad brand to be looking at all of course but if none are singing to you don't get one just because of the name.  Not sure you are, just throwing it out there.

post #42636 of 48312

Narrowed it down from a longer list of manufacturers already. 

 

I think the 5396G is as timeless as it is boring, and the 5130 is as unique as it is a bit nervous.

 

Maybe both, 5396 in G and 5130 in R. Love the R glow on the WT.

 

Still - if you have any alternatives at hand?

 

VC: no, they are somehow PP's wannabe sister company. They even have stuff like the WT and a "sports" model, too "me-too". Patrimony very good but too big.

 

AP: Mainly known for their Orang-Utan sized ROs. No thanks.

 

ALS: while some of them are nice, the whole story is too much "start up" for my taste.

 

Breguet: we are getting there, but again - Hayek's Frankenstein.

 

Piaget - Ultrathingy is nice, but in the end it is (like Cartier, whom I like) more a jewellers, not a watchmaker.

 

Niche brands: FP Journe...needs to get his act together and stop confusing his dials with a newspaper's page 1; Moser...actually quite interesting; Fleurier...their Patrimony/Ultraplano thing is quite nice but too big for my wrist.

 

So, in the end PP's 37 to 39mm models are what would be the best choice. Either bottom-of-barrel 3-hands manual or some sort of complication, in the end the watch needs to "talk to me" and I need to feel some sort of emotional connection.

 

Do you have any other suggestions?

 

P.S.: I do love the 5140 in WG despite the font issues, that one would be perfect.

post #42637 of 48312

Wow brands are very important to you eh?  You're in the league of watches where just about everything is nice so whatever you end up should be beautiful.

 

Some observations...

 

VC - not sure how it would be PP's wannabe sister brand.  Has been in operation longer and has a rich history all its own.  More popular in Asian counties than the US from what I've heard so maybe that's where you get that impression from?

 

Check out the VC Patrimony Traditionnelle in 38mm.  Finishing beats entry-level Patek imo and it has a more interesting dial.

 

 

Moser does make some amazing stuff, try it on in person.

 

 

Not sure what your FP Journe comment means but he does have a unique aesthetic that not everybody will like.

 

 

Cartier's non-entry level stuff is worth a look.  They do dilute the brand a bit imo with some of their lower-end pieces but they make excellent stuff when you start to go upmarket.  

 

 

What do you think of the JLC MUT Moon 39mm in gold?

post #42638 of 48312

VC 38mm Patri is nice indeed. The difference to PP is that whatever they do it seems as if they are copy/pasting PP's ideas, or, should that not be the case, PP's execution (see World Timer) is more spot-on.

 

I can't help thinking that PP got their act together (family-run business, things like clous de Paris (Mafoofam would pronounce it like "clout" and then claim it was a joke), the Calatrava family going back to the "96" model, World Timers, and so on). A basic 5196 is still so much more a statement it is own right, nowhere near current trends, whereas a comparable VC Patri needs to be jazzed up to be on par. Just an emotional view of it.

 

FPJ - yeah, a niche brand and their shop in rue FB is nice, but, as I said, too much going on on the dial. Same goes for most Langes, and while I can understand Belligeros's aversion to PP and their love for Arial, Lange's "Look at me I  could be from the 1930ies) thing is too much "in your face" for my liking.

 

Moser - watches are nice, still...this whole "let's take a dead guy's name and construct a watch company around it"...no.

 

If JLC, then a 50ies J (without LC) Chrono in RG. Still, that does not reply answer the "grail" question.

 

About Cartier - I am just about to discover 1960ies Cartier. Very nice, not to be compared with "Le Must" tat.

 

So, a watch which speaks for itself but, at the same time, blends in with the overall "me", hence all >40mm watches, super-duper-complications and diamond-encrusted pieces are off the list. A PP 5196P, maybe a VC if in 38mm. A PP 5396G without the nervous train-track dial. MAYBE a 5130G although, again, it makes me dizzy to look at the dial equivalent of Tolstoy's "War and Peace".

post #42639 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonHedonist View Post

You're probably right Mimo.

In other news.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Nice rubber.smile.gif

I concur. My rubber says hi.



Although I am convinced there must be something very Freudian going on with that large cigar and nice rubber..
post #42640 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meurice View Post

QUESTION

Looking for grail/exit watch, want to buy pre-owned, short list narrowed down to two, please help me solving the following conundrum:

PP 5130G, the facelifted world timer (39mm) in white gold with leather strap and deployment clasp, ca. 2008 - EUR 28,000.
Looking at the 5130's market development pre-owned prices seem to go up. I compared it with the 5110G/P but that one is too small for me (although I usually prefer 35-37mm watches). On the one hand, I am intrigued by this whole 1960ies design/sunburst centre of dial/PanAm-Jet-Age thing, on the other hand I am worried about its suitability for my daily wardrobe - mainly navy blue suits, white shirts and Hermes ties in blues, burgundies and greys.

OR

PP 5396G, in its more recent, non-sector-dial inclination. About EUR 33,000 upwards.
A statement of a watch. Dial so plain I will probably never get tired of it. Price difference to 5130 not to be neglected, funds could be diverted into other purchases (need new SAB briefcase, etc). QUESTION FOR BELLIGERO: What to you think about the date windows - too narrow?

Initially I thought I wanted a RG watch but I now believe this whole RG thing is a fad which will go way sooner or later. I travel a lot and a white metal is much more under-the-radar. I have a small collection of Hermes cufflinks in sterling silver which would go along with WG very well. 

On the one hand I think I should pick this one 5130 up at that dealer where it has been on his shelves for too long, on the other hand I believe I should wait until a 5396 comes along, given that they are relatively new they are still inclinded to go down in price and pop up on the pre-owned market more often.

BONUS QUESTION:

What are your views on the 5035P annual cal? It seems they have reached their bottom value at around EUR 22,000. What's not to like...unless you consider they're relative size (37mm), Roman numbers (quiet unfashionable at the moment) in particular if combined with a black dial (which is more sporty) and the generally quite busy dial with a lot of action going on.

5130G. Personally, I think it is a gorgeous watch and the history of the complication makes it even better.

I'm not a RG fan. I much prefer the white metals, especially for travel. But I believe in the virtue and elegance of understatement, unlike some.
post #42641 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meurice View Post
 

Narrowed it down from a longer list of manufacturers already. 

 

I think the 5396G is as timeless as it is boring, and the 5130 is as unique as it is a bit nervous.

 

Maybe both, 5396 in G and 5130 in R. Love the R glow on the WT.

 

Still - if you have any alternatives at hand?

 

VC: no, they are somehow PP's wannabe sister company. ...

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meurice View Post
 

VC 38mm Patri is nice indeed. The difference to PP is that whatever they do it seems as if they are copy/pasting PP's ideas, ...

Wow, not really sure where to begin.  The statements above seem to go beyond mere opinion and venture into the territory of inaccurate generalizations with little basis in fact. 

 

VC a wannabe sister of Patek and having a World Time watch and a sports watch/Me too thing?  Sorry, not sure how much research you have done or what you know about VC, but VC is the oldest continuous watch company.  They have been around nearly 100 years longer than Patek.  Until about the 1950s/1960s, VC reigned supreme and was viewed as standing head and shoulders above Patek and AP.  Patek and AP caught up in the late 1950s and 60's in terms of quality, but VC was making world time watches and clocks decades before the Patek's 5130 existed. VC has a very rich history of making complicated watches and simple dress watches which are top quality and that have a completely different design aesthetic than Patek.  VC's cases and dials were often considered more whimsical than the rather stoic Patek.  Not all of their designs are appealing, but Patek has had some blunders too...watches like their early versions of Nautilus watches without bracelets in the 1980s and 1990s, the Neptune, the Cabriolet in the early 2000s, etc.  More than one of my local Patek ADs has expressed being stuck with pieces when Patek moves too far from the basic Calatrava formula.  

 

As for Patek being a family a family run business, who cares?  Its irrelevant.  The Sterns are smart and have done well with Patek, but they have no ties to the founding families.  Phillip Sterns father bought the company when Patek was in financial trouble around the 1930s IIRC.  If you want a company with true family involvement from descendants of the founding families you have to look to Audemars Piguet, or independents.  I like Patek and they make a great product.  However, in someways I liked them more about 10+ years ago before all the flippers/ speculators and auction houses got involved with the vintage pieces.  People could be honest about their hits and misses.  Now, the bulk of people say everything they make is perfect because speculators, auction houses and some dealers are constantly trying to push values of old pieces higher, so speculators and auction houses can make record profits, or so some ADs can push the sales of modern watches saying this World Timer looks like the vintage model XYZ ...if you buy this now and it will jump in value too.  Suckers fall for that line not realizing the rarity of of mint condition pieces of the 50's and 60's sets them a part from the much higher production modern versions some of which will just reside in the vaults of collectors for years...so there will never been the same rarity with most modern Pateks.  

 

AS for Piaget or Cartier that you brand as jewelers...who cares if they are also jewelers, they are both solid watch companies with rich histories of making high quality products.  Piaget has been famous for decades for making the thinnest manual wind and automatic watches.  Furthermore, they have made watches using only in house movements when other top brands had to rely on outsourced based movements for some models.   They are also known for their creative use of stones in their watches much of which may only be the result of their experience with setting stones for jewelry.   Beyond that, if you want to discuss at least limited founding family involvement Yves Piaget was involved with the company far more recently than any family members of the Patek & Philippe clans were involved with their brand.  

 

Cartier is often looked down upon as a jewelry company, but often by people who know little of the brand.  They forget Cartier were one of the earliest companies to move from pocket watches to wrist watches.  In addition, they were making minute repeater watches and single pusher chronographs of tremendous quality back in the 1930s.  Even some of my most jaded watch collecting friends who are largely only interested in PP, AP, and VC all say they have to find a mint condition Tortue Monopoussoir (single pusher chronograph) to add to their collections. Sure they make some basic time only things like the Tank Francaise and Ballon Bleu etc...but their high end merchandise is top quality.  As I've covered the "Cartier is far more than a jewelry company several times in the past I'll leave it at that rather than rehash things. 

 

I think you should search for what truly makes you smile, and not worry about what we would think is a grail or piece to complete your collection.  Most of us don't know your style, what gaps may be in your present collection and we may have different taste, but again no watch can be everything to everyone.  Good luck with your search. 


Edited by Dino944 - 4/7/15 at 6:24am
post #42642 of 48312

You said it very well - I should buy what makes me smile, irrespective of historically correct facts or marketing blurb which constructs some "connection" to the past when in fact the company in its current state is a relatively new venture.

 

I know that VC is "older" than PP and somewhen back in time was actually ahead of PP in this or that, and that Cartier made good watches a few times thoughout their history (as I said, I am about to discover what they did in the 60ies, but let's rather not talk about the Le Must series, and yes, that came up when Swiss watchmaking was on the fritz because of quartz). Surely a few JLCs and even Junghänse (the plural of Junghans - I recently discovered their "Max Bill Chronoscope" in YG!! Great stuff.) are nice. But...

 

But for some reasons a very small group of manufacturers are "doing it right", hitting the nail on the head. Rolex for the Audi-like mass market, PP for high-end stuff.

 

Of course, just like in the old days when RR and Bentley were under one umbrella, one brand simply existed because people would not be seen dead in the other, so that might play into the reverse-snobbery Burberry-Aquascutum relationship of PP and VC. In my opinion, VC sadly does not have "their own way" - which Breguet (think coin-like case, fine-detailled dials) or ALS (retro 1930ies Auf-und-Ab Doppelfederhaus Teutonia). VC Patri is great, although also more generic than, say, a 5196 which very much shows its 96 heritage. And don't get me started on VC's "Sport/Diver" range, even if designed by Genta, he also had his unique (Nautilus, although I would never wear one) and less unique moments. And since you mention VC's market position in the 1950ies, that was also the time when Chevrolet and Cadillac were building very good cars. Then.

 

As long as a watch - or anything you buy - needs a long narrative to make it more desirable, it does not speak to me. The same goes for linking a watch's image with bomber pilots, motorcar racing drivers or successful golfers. When looking at Wempe's shop window (to take a very boring example), looking at a pedestrian Sub or a simple PP 5196 makes me think "this is a product which speaks for itself". It is much more difficult to do something extraordinary in a simple way. 

 

BTW thanks for "stoic" - a very good description of the 1990-2000 Patek style. When everyone is funky/innovative, being stoic is quite unique.


Edited by Meurice - 4/6/15 at 11:47am
post #42643 of 48312
Wow, some of you guys are very specific when shopping for a new watch. Me, I ask myself: "do I like it or not?" and the rest is history.
post #42644 of 48312

Hi Shawn, it is part of the fun...

post #42645 of 48312

Well finally today I talked to the head technician at the Omega boutique. He said after having some more time with Speedy, he does not recommend service. Said that it's not a chronometer and you shouldn't expect it to act like one, that they all run a little differently in different positions and mine seems to average out to keeping as good time as any. He said he re-tested it today in multiple positions and it was averaging out to +0. But after a few days it tended to be -3 to +8.

 

Wacky old 1863. Guess it was much ado about nothing.

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