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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...) - Page 2605  

post #39061 of 48312
Found a pre-owned AP RO 15300 in superb condition on one of the watch forums for like $6795. bounce2.gif




Then I saw the listing was from 2006. ffffuuuu.gif
post #39062 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

As long as the owner keeps the original back its fine.  The main things for a Purists, is probably originality.  Beyond that if it were a very collectible piece, say a 1675, 6263, 1655, anything aftermarket lowers its value...but as mentioned if the owner holds onto the original back no issues (just don't misplace it).  Then there is service, if you want to have Rolex service it, you have to swap back to the original, or have someone do that for you, if you can't do it yourself.  Rolex, at least in the US, will not service any watch with aftermarket parts.  You have to re-install the original parts, or buy new ones from Rolex (in which case they confiscate the aftermarket parts), if you want them to work on a watch currently equipped with aftermarket parts.    

yes my sub is heavily modified PVD & diamond bezel) and 2 different AD's have sneered in disgust then tried to sell me another smile.gif

i wont be servicing the piece at Rolex. I have an excellent option in Buffalo NY that i would be happy to refer others to. He didnt even want to charge me to swap the casebacks since it was such a minor task... less than 5 minute job.
post #39063 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

Seriously nobody cares. Post up. Dont be shy.

+2
post #39064 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

Found a pre-owned AP RO 15300 in superb condition on one of the watch forums for like $6795. bounce2.gif




Then I saw the listing was from 2006. ffffuuuu.gif


LOL'd.
post #39065 of 48312
And BTW, if what actually makes it into your collection is what truly matters (rather than what one aspires to own), then my personal top 3 watch brands would have to be these, in no particular order:

Omega
Cartier
Rolex

Pretty easy to determine in my case, since those are the makers from which have acquired, if not continued to hold, multiple pieces.

Having said that I love many, many watch brands and many different watches ....MANY....do you understand? biggrin.gif

So that's probably why I have wound up with single pieces from quite a few other watchmakers. And therefore I have accumulated what some might call a more "shallow" collection, as opposed to a deeper, or more focused one (i.e. concentrating on strictly dive watches, or chronographs, etc).

I still think (hope?) my next one will be something slim/dressy/precious metal. Maybe something from the so-called "Big 3", if you will.

Santa better get to work LOL.
post #39066 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith T View Post

LOL'd.

I'm glad somebody did, because I cried when I saw that.
post #39067 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnguy001 View Post

I'll PM you the link where I got these pics.

Lot of Panerai fans excited because they were going to pay around $8k for this:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)






Though solid caseback, should've at least expected a movement similar to the 418 (pictured here): Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



Someone opened the case and SURPRISE!




Firestorm followed with good reason. Sure it's old news, and Panerai I think has been trying to dig themselves (and bury) out of that misery for some time. And though I love my 312, I can't say I have the same love anymore for the brand. I hope to one day again. But rising prices, along with slaps in the face of its loyal customers like this - just sad.

Was an answer ever given on how/why this happened?
post #39068 of 48312
My favorite three are ones that I own and/or owned:

Rolex
Omega
UTS
post #39069 of 48312
Top 3, huh? Okay, here goes.


To absolutely nobody's surprise, I'm listing Rolex first.

The funny thing is that when I first got into watches, I thought they were dealing mostly in hype and were strictly for unenlightened wankers. (To be fair, the popular "R" forum often reinforces the stereotype.) Also, so many enthusiastic noobs are parroting tripe about how their fly-by-night-brand knockoff is "just as good as an overpriced Rolex" that it's easy to start believing it. But I've come to realize that they're the real deal, to the point that I don't believe they have any true competition in what they do. (I'm a bit of an oaf, so as much as I admire the more-intricate and more-delicate stuff, I wouldn't consider wearing an horlogerie-ish watch regularly.)

The turning point for me was meeting a formerly Patek-Philippe-employed watchmaker in 2009 who had just moved to Norway for the better-paying-than-watchmaking subsea robotics industry. On his wrist was a black-dialled Daytona. He talked, I learned. Since then, I've met watchmakers in Norway, Sweden, Austria and Hungary. All but one wore Rolex (Hungarian dude had a cool 7750-based pilot's chrono from one of the little guys), and every single one respects the company.

When you look at what they've done, it's surprising how little they mention about their technical achievements. Any other company that used something as exclusive as LIGA-cut gear teeth just to cut down on backlash would be doing considerable yapping about it; it took quite a while before anyone noticed that they'd been quietly incorporated in the 4160 movement. The 9001 is a tour de force technically, even if the look of the Sky-Dweller isn't my cup of tea. Handmade they ain't, but their watchmaking skills are hardcore and there's plenty to appreciate. They have an active R&D division in which the boss has a PhD in tribology (the study of friction) for cripes' sake.

The movements are brilliant in design and execution, and they don't mess around with nickel-and-dime BS like outsourcing manufacturing to save a few bucks in countries with crap labour and environmental standards while still claiming Swiss-made under the wimpy 50% rule. They make the entire watch themselves to an exemplary standard in buildings that resemble super-spy film sets. I have nothing but respect for their watchmaking.

I like that they're old-school engineers to the bone — their stuff works right and keeps working. If I had to stick with just one watch, there's no doubt that it would be produced by Rolex. I don't always love the styling on the new stuff, but they're without a doubt the one to have if you're a normal person and just want one quality watch that can stay on your wrist daily until you die. Then one of the kids you've neglected by spending too much time in the office can hock it for crack money.




Nomos gets the same level of esteem from me. I highly appreciate what they do and what they're about; they're the only watch company towards whom I feel anything like genuine affection. Everything they do has a touch of thoughtfulness and attention to detail, even down to the Christmas card they sent me last year just for buying a strap. They have a passion for watchmaking and design, and it shows. Just have a look at their website or their watchmaking encyclopedia; they're informative and charming. I also like that they don't do the glitzy bullshit with paid ambassadors and douche-glamour imagery. Instead, they rely on their considerable creativity and intellect to engage the mind instead of the ego.

Recently, they've joined a very elite club by producing their own hairspring and escapement. Almost nobody else can independently produce the single most essential component of the watch. It's difficult to overstate the significance of this achievement; 95% of the industry is on Swatch Group's tit for the critical beating heart of the watch, and nobody except Rolex (zero chance of that actually happening) and Seiko (that would get interesting) is capable of producing them in enough quantity for the other guys if Nivarox decided to turn off the supply.

I love their designs, too. They have a style that works and they stick with it, while avoiding the luxury-watch clichés. They're unpretentious, elegant and refined, and I smile when I see one.

Nomos is quality. I would give them a hug if that were physically possible.





Between those two, you've got everything covered except for true beaters and ultra-complications, neither of which I have much use for at the moment. I care less about #3 so it's challenging; there are many worthy candidates and almost-but-not-quites:



  • Lange is awesome. Though they're not something I would get much wear out of, it's nice that Richemont seems to be leaving them their independence and not attempting to create another Panerai trend like they're doing with IWC and Cartier.
  • Patek Philippe is no joke and they make top-grade movements, but they need to step up their design game a bit if they're going to charge that kind of money, and I honestly think they see themselves as some kind of new DeBeers. I know they're a collector favourite, but I just ain't feeling the love these days. (Obviously the last examples of design classics such as Frilly's 3970s (both of 'em!) and PCs are an exception; that shit is hawt!) If I seem a bit harsh, it's because they're the standard-bearer for horlogerie.
  • I think toubillions are pointless, but fantasy-league exotics such as Greubel Forsey make some jaw-dropping stuff. Far beyond anything I'd ever spend on a watch and good luck getting it serviced in future years, but respek'.
  • I adore pre-Swatch-Group Omega but the current ones don't interest me much other than the acrylic Speedmaster.
  • I respect Cartier's history and they've made some legitimate classics, but their current design direction smacks of pandering to some kind of insufferable suburbanite's idea of an expensive watch.
  • JLC's good; it's a shame about the congolomerate-influenced BS like the Navy-Seals-wannabe stuff and Batman Reverso. Also, $270 mainspring barrels.
  • Nothing but respect for Seiko, but they don't have anything that compels me to buy design-wise.
  • They're responsible for a few real mingers and likely also some wrist-strain injuries, but nothing bad to say about Breitling as a watch company.
  • Chopard's the real deal and would be a candidate if I wanted to blow a stack of cash on something dressy. Same with H. Moser & Cie and Laurent Ferrier. Me likey.
  • Hit-and-miss Girard Perregaux is underappreciated and is doing some amazing stuff. Pro tip: some of their watches can be an absolute steal secondhand.
  • I like Vulcain a lot, and if they had something no-excuses other than the Nautical they'd probably be a lock for third for what I like. Seriously underappreciated, too.
  • Mad respect for ze Germans; they give you your money's worth almost without exception regardless of price range. Special shout-out to Sinn; they've taken very good care of me and they're nice folks.



So it looks like Audemars Piguet takes third by elimination. Can't find anything to bitch about with them. Family-owned, impeccable watchmaking chops, good selection, high-end cred, and a true luxury. (I'll politely ignore the Offshore range.) I'm done buying watches for a while, but if I consolidate and my life settles down to the point where I can responsibly take care of a Royal Oak 15202, I'm all over it.

But I doubt it will feel like getting my first GMT.


Well, that was fun. Feel free to tell me if you think I'm a stupid idiot or whatever.
smile.gif



Edit: Zenith deserves a mention. They're a true watchmaking company and they make good stuff. I'm certain that I've omitted a few others too.
Edited by Belligero - 12/19/14 at 8:35am
post #39070 of 48312

If I liked the Royal Oak, AP would be on my list. And when I say that, I just mean for me. The RO is a watch that is too precious for me to wear daily or in anything sport related, and it's not understated enough to wear as a dress watch (again, for me). If I had unlimited funds, I'd own a 15202, but considering all of that, and that I don't really like any of their other designs when compared to what one of their competitors offers, they kind of fall off. They are a brand I want to like because I respect them, but I just haven't come around.

 

Vulcan is a brand I've come to really like because of your pics. Some of the models are just really cool. And your GP, :inlove:

post #39071 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post

Top 3, huh? Okay, here goes.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
To absolutely nobody's surprise, I'm listing Rolex first.

The funny thing is that when I first got into watches, I thought they were dealing mostly in hype and were strictly for unenlightened wankers. You see so many enthusiastic noobs parroting tripe about how their fly-by-night-brand knockoff is "just as good as an overpriced Rolex" that it's easy to start believing it. But I've come to realize that they're the real deal, to the point that I don't believe they have any true competition in what they do. (I'm a bit of an oaf, so as much as I admire the more-intricate and more-delicate stuff, I wouldn't consider wearing an horlogerie-ish watch regularly.)

The turning point for me was meeting a formerly Patek-Philippe-employed watchmaker in 2009 who had just moved to Norway for the better-paying-than-watchmaking subsea robotics industry. On his wrist was a black-dialled Daytona. He talked, I learned. Since then, I've met watchmakers in Norway, Sweden, Austria and Hungary. All but one wore Rolex (Hungarian dude had a cool 7750-based pilot's chrono from one of the little guys), and every single one respects the company.

When you look at what they've done, it's surprising how little they mention about their technical achievements. Any other company that used something as exclusive as LIGA-cut gear teeth just to cut down on backlash would be doing considerable yapping about it; it took quite a while before anyone noticed that they'd been quietly incorporated in the 4160 movement. The 9001 is a tour de force technically, even if the look of the Sky-Dweller isn't my cup of tea. Handmade they ain't, but their watchmaking skills are hardcore and there's plenty to appreciate. They have an active R&D division in which the boss has a PhD in tribology (the study of friction) for cripes' sake.

The movements are brilliant in design and execution, and they don't mess around with nickel-and-dime BS like outsourcing manufacturing to save a few bucks in countries with crap labour and environmental standards while still claiming Swiss-made under the wimpy 50% rule. They make the entire watch themselves to an exemplary standard in buildings that resemble super-spy film sets. I have nothing but respect for their watchmaking.

I like that they're old-school engineers to the bone — their stuff works right and keeps working. If I had to stick with just one watch, there's no doubt that it would be produced by Rolex. I don't always love the styling on the new stuff, but they're without a doubt the one to have if you're a normal person and just want one quality watch that can stay on your wrist daily until you die. Then one of the kids you've neglected by spending too much time in the office can hock it for crack money.




Nomos gets the same level of esteem from me. I highly appreciate what they do and what they're about; they're the only watch company towards whom I feel anything like genuine affection. Everything they do has a touch of thoughtfulness and attention to detail, even down to the Christmas card they sent me last year just for buying a strap. They have a passion for watchmaking and design, and it shows. Just have a look at their website or their watchmaking encyclopedia; they're informative and charming. I also like that they don't do the glitzy bullshit with paid ambassadors and douche-glamour imagery. Instead, they rely on their considerable creativity and intellect to engage the mind instead of the ego.

Recently, they've joined a very elite club by producing their own hairspring and escapement. Almost nobody else can independently produce the single most essential component of the watch. It's difficult to overstate the significance of this achievement; 95% of the industry is on Swatch Group's tit for the critical beating heart of the watch, and nobody except Rolex (zero chance of that actually happening) and Seiko (that would get interesting) is capable of producing them in enough quantity for the other guys if Nivarox decided to turn off the supply.

I love their designs, too. They have a style that works and they stick with it, while avoiding the luxury-watch clichés. They're unpretentious, elegant and refined, and I smile when I see one.

Nomos is quality. I would give them a hug if that were physically possible.





Between those two, you've got everything covered except for true beaters and ultra-complications, neither of which I have much use for at the moment. I care less about #3 so it's challenging; there are many worthy candidates and almost-but-not-quites:



  • Lange is awesome. Though they're not something I would get much wear out of, it's nice that Richemont seems to be leaving them their independence and not attempting to create another Panerai trend like they're doing with IWC and Cartier.
  • Patek Philippe is no joke and they make top-grade movements, but they need to step up their design game a bit if they're going charge that kind of money, and I honestly think they see themselves as some kind of new DeBeers. I know they're a collector favourite, but I just ain't feeling the love these days. (Obviously the last examples of design classics such as Frilly's 3970s (both of 'em!) and PCs are an exception; that shit is hawt!) If I seem a bit harsh, it's because they're the standard-bearer for horlogerie.
  • I think toubillions are pointless, but fantasy-league exotics such as Greubel Forsey make some jaw-dropping stuff. Far beyond anything I'd ever spend on a watch and good luck getting it serviced in future years, but respek.
  • I adore pre-Swatch-Group Omega but the current ones don't interest me much other than the acrylic Speedmaster.
  • I respect Cartier's history and they've made some legitimate classics, but their current design direction smacks of pandering to some kind of insufferable suburbanite's idea of an expensive watch.
  • JLC's good; it's a shame about the congolomerate-influenced BS like the Navy-Seals-wannabe stuff and Batman Reverso. Also, $270 mainspring barrels.
  • Nothing but respect for Seiko, but they don't have anything that compels me to buy design-wise.
  • They're responsible for a few real mingers and likely also some wrist-strain injuries, but nothing bad to say about Breitling as a watch company.
  • Chopard's the real deal and would be a candidate if I wanted to blow a stack of cash on something dressy. Same with H. Moser & Cie and Laurent Ferrier. Me likey.
  • Hit-and-miss Girard Perregaux is underappreciated and is doing some amazing stuff. Pro tip: some of their watches can be an absolute steal secondhand.
  • I like Vulcain a lot, and if they had something no-excuses other than the Nautical they'd probably be a lock for third for what I like. Seriously underappreciated, too.
  • Mad respect for ze Germans; they give you your money's worth almost without exception regardless of price range. Special shout-out to Sinn; they've taken very good care of me and they're nice folks.



So it looks like Audemars Piguet takes third by elimination. Can't find anything to bitch about with them. Family-owned, impeccable watchmaking chops, good selection, high-end cred, and a true luxury. (I'll politely ignore the Offshore range.) I'm done buying watches for a while, but if I consolidate and my life settles down to the point where I can responsibly take care of a Royal Oak 15202, I'm all over it.

But I doubt it will feel like getting my first GMT.

Well, that was fun. Feel free to tell me if you think I'm a stupid idiot or whatever.
smile.gif

Great post. Thanks.
post #39072 of 48312

Fantastic post, Belli.  Just one quibble: I want to like Nomos for all the reasons you said.  But they shaft their Asian and Middle Eastern customers by charging them an extra 20%, and that I take personally!

 

I am not sure I can play this game properly, as I only have three mechanical watches, all of them cheap.  But I would say a word about each of them:

 

- Omega (pre-Swatch): it's amazing how much love I get, in both virtual and real worlds, for a watch the like of which is on eBay for less than $300 every day of the week.  But it's well over forty years old, it works, and design-wise, less really is more in this instance.  The simple stamped dial aged nicely, parts and service are easy and cheap, and so I'd recommend it to anyone who wants a well-known name for not much money.

 

- Seiko: I find it hard to comprehend how a mechanical watch that works and that feels decent can be made so cheap, reliable and consistent.  As an exercise in management, it's masterly.  Like Belli, I can't feel massive love for most Seikos design-wise.  But I love my Orange Monster - great bracelet, quality feel and distinctive look for the money, my son's Seiko 5 Military is genuinely attractive as a casual wear, and you could pick up both for $300 new.  I've no experience of the higher end, but I'd love the Ananta Spring Drive Moon I think.

 

- Stowa: like Belli, I've a soft spot for the Germans in general.  I just like the way they roll when it comes to business - an minimal ratio of bullshit:delivery.  And Stowa don't rip of their non-EU customers either!  I'm truly impressed with the level of quality, in design, function and even packaging, that they can put out there for c.$1000.  There are a hundred luxury watches I could list off the top of my head for my dream mega-winder, should I ever live under my own private volcano in a spaceship.  But even then, I'd be happy to see another Stowa or two on the list.  Not going to win any pissing contests, but plenty of personal satisfaction.

 

 

Off in dream land, Lange sit at the top of my list for sure.  I share Belli's view of PP, that there just aren't enough contemporary models that have the "wow" factor for me.  VC have some great stuff, but only a couple more than PP, AP really it's just the RO for me, and Breguet equally few. Lange aside it's the more accessible luxury makers that are in my sights, and like the Langes I prefer, they tend to be Richemont-owned and non TWAT-approved: IWC's Portuguese chronos, Panerai's 1940 Radiomirs, and Roger Dubuis's Monegasques spring to mind first.

 

But there is a certain weighty inevitability about a Rolex some day, I have a guilty attraction to some non-approved Breitlings, and as an inveterate cheapskate, deep discounts and value for money could take me in all sorts of directions...used GP, Sinn, Nomos still...Zenith.  And a word in dispatches for some much-maligned Swatches: Glashuette Original's Senators (pretty much any), Longines's 688 chronographs, and I'm always recommending Tissot to other people - and glad I bought one for my son.  

 

 

I guess my shorter answer should have been: "Three?  Ha!"

 

P.S. @Belligero is a stupid idiot.

P.P.S. And I am influenced heavily by his opinions.

post #39073 of 48312
+1. That's what I'm talking about, Belli
post #39074 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post

Top 3, huh? Okay, here goes.
 

 

I aspire to one day be able to write articles that are half as good as your forum posts. Excellent and thought-provoking.

post #39075 of 48312
+1. That's what I'm talking about, Belli


Here's a NOMOS that I find VERY interesting..


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