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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...) - Page 2544  

post #38146 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I thought the brand came about in the early eighties, pointedly attempting to copycat the porthole concept from Audemars, and predominantly based on quartz movements.

Isn't the porthole thing a popular misconception?

See #7 here:

'7. Parts were inspired by a diving helmet.
Apparently after having received the design brief for what was to become the Royal Oak, Gérald Genta happened upon a diver emerging from Lake Geneva and thought to himself, If the screws holding the faceplate were strong enough to ensure a watertight seal on the helmet, surely they must be capable of doing the same for a watch.'


post #38147 of 48312

Ok I'll chime in since I have seen and been in many parts of the industry. The "cost of production" discussion is a bit of a red herring because it is difficult to figure out exactly what is a production cost and what is not. For example, on a high end watch, movement R&D is a huge expense, but is then amortized across as many pieces and models as the company chooses to use that movement in. Also you have your general expenses like marketing, wages, etc that have to figure in. That being said, and using very rough numbers, figure that the retailer buys at approx a 50% margin (again, for some brands it is much less, for some it is more). So already the TOTAL cost the "produce" that piece has to be less than 50% of the MSRP otherwise the company would lose money on every piece it wholesales.

 

In practice, you end up with margins all over the map for different brands and different pieces within each brand's product lineup. It would be pretty rare to find a coefficient of less than 4 (meaning MSRP is 4x production cost) as by the time you figure in all the other expenses it would be nearly impossible for that company to make any money at all. At close to 4, a company has to be incredibly well run just to survive and keep producing, and certainly no one is getting rich. Then you have coefficients all the way up to the 10-20 and above range once you start getting into real crap that is basically all smoke and mirrors.

 

At the end of the day, we need the producers of these things to make SOME money otherwise no one will actually produce them and the great companies will go out of business. For myself, I think anything with a coefficient in the ~4-6 range is incredible value, 7-10 is probably what I'd expect to pay for something with more "brand value" (i.e. a Patek is always going to be worth more just because it says Patek on the dial, and that itself is a real value to the consumer that doesn't cost Patek anything). Above 10 definitely feels like a ripoff, but certainly some of those pieces still sell very well.

post #38148 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaves View Post

Because of my ignorance in regards of watchmaking I'm hoping to get some support from the SF community. Here's a watch my aunt gave to me. She found it in a drawer on our family farm. She believes it was given to my granddad by my great grandfather. Unfortunately, anyone who would know the history about the watch is long gone. Movement looks to be in a decent condition? Could it have been replaced or do you think it's the original one? I'm not really interested in the value of the watch as I hope to pass it to my son one day, but it would be nice to know more about it. Hopefully the kids of today can appreciate a watch handed down for five generations but maybe we'll all be plugged into machines in 30 years eh? They tell me this Internet thing is getting out of hand, soon you'l even buy shoes online. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



Wow Patrik, that's pretty. I don't know much about it other than that. Omega keeps pretty good archives and should be able to give you some info based on the numbers on the case. You can inquire via the site and they are quite helpful.
post #38149 of 48312
Beautiful watches to be sure, but they don't really sing to me at all. Same for H. Moser... Sometimes I think something's wrong with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Am I the only person not enamored with Laurent Ferrier? The movements are gorgeous, but the case and dial designs leave me cold. The streamlined lugs and long skinny hour/minute markers seem like token efforts to appear more modern.
post #38150 of 48312
I think I narrowed down my list for a first watch to a single one: this Seamaster (ref. 2254.50):
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

It's been discontinued but there seem to be a good amount of them going around the forums. Is there anything I should know about this model that would sway my choice from this model? Also, any recommendations for how to best purchase a watch online (and to make sure I don't get scammed)? Thanks!
Edited by Krish the Fish - 11/14/14 at 11:50pm
post #38151 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by tifosi View Post

Wow Patrik, that's pretty. I don't know much about it other than that. Omega keeps pretty good archives and should be able to give you some info based on the numbers on the case. You can inquire via the site and they are quite helpful.

Thanks Tifosi, that's solid advice, I'll look over there.
post #38152 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaves View Post

Because of my ignorance in regards of watchmaking I'm hoping to get some support from the SF community. Here's a watch my aunt gave to me. She found it in a drawer on our family farm. She believes it was given to my granddad by my great grandfather. Unfortunately, anyone who would know the history about the watch is long gone. Movement looks to be in a decent condition? Could it have been replaced or do you think it's the original one? I'm not really interested in the value of the watch as I hope to pass it to my son one day, but it would be nice to know more about it. Hopefully the kids of today can appreciate a watch handed down for five generations but maybe we'll all be plugged into machines in 30 years eh? They tell me this Internet thing is getting out of hand, soon you'l even buy shoes online.




Very nice!

As for info about your watch, I would ask over at :http://mb.nawcc.org Don Dahlberg has been very helpful with info on my vintage pieces.
post #38153 of 48312
Time for some pics..

924c6cb61dd6f3c2c45882070592de67.jpg5d1c276dbaa6b93b7279959c55319a80.jpg

Never manage to get good photos of the Sonata.
post #38154 of 48312
Absolutely stunning! Congrats!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TC (Houston) View Post

Day 4. I wasn't planning to wear this to the office very often but I can't freakin help myself.

15596463250_03b2908d3f_z.jpg
post #38155 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonF View Post

Absolutely stunning! Congrats!
Pretty freakin' boss. Can barely be contained by cuffs.
post #38156 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiasGendrick View Post

I don't consider it stupid, necessarily, but I don't think that a prestige watch brand is ever an investment. It will never produce reliable income. At best, there is now and then a particular model that ends up being desirable to collectors and increasing in value.

To be clear, though, this is speculation, nt investment. Warren Buffet would be quick to point this out.

I have only bought a couple of high end watches new. The rest I've bought used or inherited. The used market often shaves 50% or more out of a watch in great condition. A few scuffs on the case and bracelet would be inevitable anyway. And a good movement kept well serviced will last for generations.

I doubt I will ever buy Patek, Nardin, etc, and other "super prestige" brands. I imagine the price of manufacturing is closer to 10% of those list prices. They remind me of the infamous Hermes alligator peacoat. It costs 250,000. A top quality alligator skin goes for around 2k. It might use 2-4 skins. A great tailor works for $60-80 an hour. So even if the materials were 8,000 and manufacturing cost were 3,200...that would be 4.48% of the MSRP.

To me, that much markup will always be insane. That's the domain of the ultra wealthy who have forgotten what savvy spending is, and looks like. I have much more respect for someone who makes a great secondhand Rolex purchase. Just my opinion.

Not to add further fuel to the fire, but I find these economic arguments dull and repetitive. The same arguments get re-hashed over and over again by "the bargain hunters", whether it's about watches, bespoke clothes, etc. Lets just accept that watches or bespoke clothes are (with a few exceptions) neither great investments nor "value propositions" in the strictest sense of the phrase. We buy watches and bespoke clothes because they are beautiful design objects/examples of craftsmanship, not because we are going to get a good return from them. When I invest, I put my money in property, the stock market or art. I have no illusions that my watches/bespoke clothes are going to make me money or are good value. I buy what I love, within financial limits; I would guess that many of us are this way too. I'm not going criticize anyone for buying second hand or buying "cheaper" watches; so long as they love and appreciate what they have. And I'm more than happy (like most others) for anyone to post any watches they love here, regardless of whether its a Stowa or a Patek.

No; the main problem I have with posts like this is that there's a large element of sour grapes/wealth envy that underlie comments like this. Just becaus you don't have the cash to buy a new Patek perpetual doesn't make you any less of a watch lover/collector than Frills or some of the wealthier members on this thread, but neither does it give you any moral high ground to condescend to those of us who can afford more. I'm pleased that you're happy to collect what you have, whether you've bought new or second hand. There's no shame or judgment. A beautiful watch is a beautiful watch - period. But don't go bring down the tone of TWAT just because you wish you had bigger bucks and envy those who can afford more. Life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try our best to just live and let live.

EDIT: The juxtaposition of Nardine and Patek still baffles me; Nardine is a mid-tier maker which is not a super-prestige brand to most watch fans, and Patek...well is Patek. Price differential for comparable models (eg time only watches, etc) are radically different. What gives?
post #38157 of 48312
^ This
post #38158 of 48312
What academe said above.

Moving on...
post #38159 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krish the Fish View Post

I think I narrowed down my list for a first watch to a single one: this Seamaster (ref. 2254.50): Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

It's been discontinued but there seem to be a good amount of them going around the forums. Is there anything I should know about this model that would sway my choice from this model? Also, any recommendations for how to best purchase a watch online (and to make sure I don't get scammed)? Thanks!

That's a great choice. I used to own this watch. It's a solid watch and nothing to really look out for. Just be mindful of the Omega anti-counterfeit marks and Omega's red dot on the case back if you want an un-opened watch. They were discontinued around 7 or so years ago, so if you get an unopened one, it will most likely be due for a service. There are a few floating around, but it seems a lot of people hold on to these. The prices have really gone up since I sold mine in around 2008 and for what I sold it for I should have held on to it. haha

post #38160 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnguy001 View Post

Beautiful watches to be sure, but they don't really sing to me at all. Same for H. Moser... Sometimes I think something's wrong with me.

I suppose I'm in the same boat. Ferrier and Moser don't sing to me either, though objectively I appreciate the finishing and workmanship on Ferriers in particular. For time-only dress watches of this calibre, the design language of Lange or VC appeal to me more.
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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...)