Gosh, I did not realize my Darltons have been renamed. I am behind on the shoe game.
Also, related--cordovan is awesome.
I picked up the apline grain short wing from Epaulet (Alden) for my all weathers this year. Lighter in color than I was originally looking for, but have really fallen for them. Plus they've been great in harsh weather thus far (have survived 5 really bad rain storms since I got them with zero issues).
Thanks for the reply. I was able to try on both the black and white Daytona's and really loved how the black dial looked. My current everyday watch is a Tag Aquaracer chronograph with white dial that I have worn for over 5 years so having a black dial chronograph would be a nice change, not to mention the clear upgrade. The AD which I have no history at was very helpful but said absolutely nothing could be done on the price of the Daytona which I expected might be the case.
I really wish I could try on the Jumbo. My first time trying on the 39mm Royal Oak I realized why people enjoy them so much. You can't appreciate it without trying it on and I'd imagine this is even more so the case with the Jumbo. I also love the idea of an exhibition back on a watch that has such a fantastic movement.
Neither watch would put a strain on my finances but for some reason the Jumbo seems a lot more expensive, probably because it is . I think especially with luxury items everyone has a benchmark for what is "a lot" of money that gradually increases as they get more involved with that item. At one point in time $300 might be "a lot" of money for a pair of shoes for someone. A year later $1000 might be normal for that same person without their financial situation changing. For me the Daytona is in that comfort zone and the Jumbo is just outside of it. Although the Daytona probably makes the most sense for me right I guess I can always have the Jumbo in the back of my head.
If you have a white dial Tag Chronograph, a black dial Daytona will certainly be a nice change. Sticker price seems to be the way it is again on Daytonas. For years when they were very tough to get 1993- about 2007, if you could get it at list price it was considered a great deal. Plenty of ADs were charging over list price particularly when the previous model 16520 was in production. There was a brief time when the market was soft around 2009, and before Rolex imposed a strict no discounting steel watches when a modest 5% discount could be had on a Daytona...but those days are gone. If you like the watch, and need something a bit more rugged than a Jumbo...then a Daytona is a great choice. Back in the early 1990's a black dial steel 16520 Daytonas was my grail watch. I've owned a few different models and still enjoy wearing them.
If you want to try a Jumbo, your best bet is to take a long weekend to a city that has an AP boutique and tell them you want to try on a Jumbo. Actually, the first current model Jumbo I saw was simply by chance when the Mrs. and I visited NYC in May of 2012. We were nearby and so I wanted to stop in and look around. They had a new Jumbo in rose, that I tried on. Nice, but the rose and blue dial were not my favorite combination, besides if buying a first RO, I tend to feel it should be in the metal it was originally designed to be made of, steel. So I inquired about the new one in steel, they told me they would check in the back and sure enough they had a new one.
Its definitely an expensive watch for an all steel time only watch. I had never spent that amount on a steel watch period. However, I can say that there isn't a day I regretted its purchase. Its a watch that once you have worn it for a while, you really come to appreciated various nuances about its design, finish, and what is required to produce one...and then you begin to understand why its expensive. I still think its a very expensive watch, but its definitely a watch where I can see why it costs what it does...which is something I do not see with some other watches. IMHO, its one of the best watch purchases I've ever made, and I do think its worth what it costs (and that's taking into account that I think most watch prices have gone up by ridiculous amounts during the last 10 years).
I agree. If MG tries on a Jumbo, its the watch he truly wants, and he can afford it without being stressed about or financially strained because of its price. Then he should buy it. Perhaps it means saving up just to have an additional financial cushion before making the purchase. I have a friend that often hesitates to buy the watch he wants because of price (even though he has the means), he buys a substitute, the watch he truly wanted eats away at him until he has to have it. Then he sells the substitute usually at a loss, and he has to hope the watch he wanted hasn't gone up in price, and it almost always ends up costing him more than if he had bought the watch he truly wanted in the beginning.
The Daytona was a grail watch for me also, particularly the prior 16520 model. I was thrilled when I finally got one. I wore one as a daily wearer for nearly 5 years and its performance was flawless. It was one of the most accurate watches I ever owned.
I am not sure that I agree with you as for the actual value of the Daytona vs. the Jumbo, and I think it differs Jumbo vs chronograph. At one point I questioned spending what a Jumbo costs, because you can easily get the chrono for the same money, or because of its greater availability less. However, on some level it comes down to the movement. The Jumbo uses what it still the thinnest automatic movement in the world. It takes real effort to make something very thin or very small, and have it be reliable and beautiful. Its also, IMHO a bit finer in finish, and a more exclusive movement. While the movement in the chronograph is a a very nice movement, the base being cal. 1185 F.Piguet, its base is used in lots of other watches...all good quality, BP, Breguet Type XX, VC Overseas, or the old 38mm Cartier Pasha chrono, but most of them are substantially less expensive than a RO Chrono. The Jumbo's movement developed by JLC (when AP owned part of JLC) has only been used in PP's Original Nautilus, VC's 222, the RO Jumbo and a handful of other APs and VCs. AP owns the rights to this movement.
As for value based on the movement of the Daytona vs. a Jumbo...its a trade off. Rolex makes a great, robust, movement with a chronograph function. The finish is very good, but plain. They don't strive to make watches that are finely finished as a RO Jumbo, PP Nautilus, VC, etc, its not the market they are pursuing. It does give you a chronograph function, and its a handsome sporty watch. However, most people I know, myself included do not use the chronograph functions on our watches that often (although maybe you do). The movement in the RO Jumbo, is a work of art its completely different level of workmanship. If you have ever seen photos of Daytona Cal 4130 and AP 2121 its a night and day difference. To be honest as much as I adore my chronographs, my time only Jumbo provides a completely different experience and one that I appreciate as much if not more than being able to use the chronograph on my Cartier Pasha Chrono or Daytona.
Resale value was historically higher on Daytonas, but that has changed. They hold a good percentage of their value, higher than most other brands. However, its not what it once was. The steel Daytonas I've bought were all about 1/3 to 1/2 of what they cost today...so all of them went up in value when I see what the current second hand market is today. However, LNIB modern Daytonas seem to have asking prices of about $3K less than MSRP...and there is no discount on a new one. I think the AP RO chrono market is different than the Jumbo market, because they produce far more RO chronos than Jumbos (availability both new and used is greater for the chrono). When I checked to see what the few current version pre-owned Jumbo's are selling for, the asking price was within $1,000 of what I paid for mine...and they sell. Even if you look at the prior version of the Jumbo, its within $2-3K of what their original MSRPs were, which was significantly less than today's MSRP, and those were watches were bought with reasonable discounts...so there has been little to no loss for some buyers.
In the end, both are great choices. There is a price difference that should not be ignored, but I think there is an argument that can be made that value can go beyond price, and that resale values are not always what they appear to be and can change.
This thread is absolutely on fire the last couple of days. And not just Frilly's triple-post show-boating
- Keith's agonising over his unnatural urges. Unnatural indeed, but we've all got some kind of guilty watch-lust for something peculiar. I loved that post.
- RO versus Daytona; intriguing (and familiar) mental debate in itself, and the bigger question of...just where to draw the line on perceived "value"?
- Non-Serviam's beautiful share; the kind of writing that makes this thread the best on SF by far
- All sorts of enabling ("buy the expensive one because it's what you really want" etc. - the kind of thing that makes TWAT friends more expensive than real-world friends)
- Frilly's extraordinary diversions into watch gender versatility, side tabs, beater shoes and cordovan
- Wraith's magical mystery gift build-up
- Whether Fossil is shit (FWIW I don't know, or care - if I'm buying my beloved a $200 gift, I think I get get a great *something* for that, but probably not a great watch)
- And of course, carefully reasoned, thorough and dispassionate advice and market analysis from Dino, with the inevitable conclusion that buying a RO is a good idea
What can I possibly add? I'll just keep reading.
Yes, my mistake, the Type XX does use a Lemania. Maybe I need to pick one up to reinforce that in my brain...although I think Mrs. Dino would prefer if I just made the occasional mistake