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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...) - Page 1711  

post #25651 of 48312
Is "facile sophistry" a Canadian thing, like poutine?
post #25652 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by HorseHide View Post

Is "facile sophistry" a Canadian thing, like poutine?

Bawhawhawhaw could be!
post #25653 of 48312
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Originally Posted by Newcomer View Post

So, just snapped a couple pics of the work get-up. I need to work on my technique, Frills makes me shog[1].gif



Love the watch and the pairing of those shoes and sock!  Nice job Nuke!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

Hey, guys. Question for ya'll. In the past I would list steel Submariners on eBay for 4995 and they would sell within minutes. Literally. As of late though, they have not been selling at that price, and even at 4795 I am getting no bids. Pristine condition, late model, full box and papers.

We spoke to a watch guy in Florida that we do a lot of business with about it, and he said that he had noticed the same. He said he believes that with the uptick in interest, particularly in Asia, in PP and ALS and what not, that a lot of the people who used to buy Rolexes now view them as peasant watches, and it has depressed the market.

Anyone here have similar experiences? Any thoughts on the matter?

I agree with Nuke, that in September/October people tend to hold off on bigger purchases knowing that holiday shopping is just around the corner.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the guy in Florida.  In general unless you are speaking of all gold Rolex watches or blinged out models, there is a big price difference between Rolex and ALS or PP.  ALS doesn't offer a sports watch so functionally they don't have anything the competes directly with Rolex in a sporty category.  As for Patek, yes they make the Nautilus & Aquanaut, but again both seem more delicate than say a Sub/Ex2 or GMT, and are at a substantially higher price point.  Hence a person who can afford a Patek could purchase a Rolex, but the person that can afford the Rolex may not be able to afford the Patek.  Sure there may be some people at the top of the food chain that consider a Rolex a peasant watch, but I know plenty of people that own watches from top brands, but who still own and buy Rolex watches.  

 

Hopefully, its just some pre-holiday jitters keeping people from buying big items until they are ready to do some real holiday shopping.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bourbonbasted View Post

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been watching that closely. Especially over the past year or so, I've put purchasing a watch on the back burner. I'm at a time in my life where I have the opportunity to save a lot of money, and I see that as the most prudent path. That said, when I was looking about 6 months ago, things seemed to be hovering between $3.5k and $4k. However, I can remember a time a couple of years ago or so where $4k was a deal.

I sold a 114270 Explorer to a dealer about a year ago, for $3,800 and they marked it up to mid $4s IIRC and it sold pretty quickly.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

Today - charcoal grey suit can be boring, so add a dash of subtle herringbone texture here, a splash of color there. Shoes are GG Colcutt, single monk strap on the Deco last. Watch is the tonneau shaped 5040 perpetual calendar.

I know Dino likes the tonneau shaped watch but is no fan of the tie bar. The tie bar does hold the tie in place for me given my swashbuckling day job. Kidding. Functionality aside I just like the little hint of detail that a vintage tie bar adds. Plus I'm a f*ng SF regular dandy type, I guess. wink.gif

6e3u3yzu.jpg

I dig the tie, the suit fabric, those funky socks with the shoes, and course that lovely 5040!  Sorry, I'm just not a tie bar guy but 5 out of 6 items is a pretty good score...and it just means I've set the bar a bit higher for you to dazzel us!  ;) 

post #25654 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

We spoke to a watch guy in Florida that we do a lot of business with about it, and he said that he had noticed the same. He said he believes that with the uptick in interest, particularly in Asia, in PP and ALS and what not, that a lot of the people who used to buy Rolexes now view them as peasant watches, and it has depressed the market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

I'm not sure I agree with the guy in Florida.  In general unless you are speaking of all gold Rolex watches or blinged out models, there is a big price difference between Rolex and ALS or PP.  ALS doesn't offer a sports watch so functionally they don't have anything the competes directly with Rolex in a sporty category.  As for Patek, yes they make the Nautilus & Aquanaut, but again both seem more delicate than say a Sub/Ex2 or GMT, and are at a substantially higher price point.  Hence a person who can afford a Patek could purchase a Rolex, but the person that can afford the Rolex may not be able to afford the Patek.  Sure there may be some people at the top of the food chain that consider a Rolex a peasant watch, but I know plenty of people that own watches from top brands, but who still own and buy Rolex watches.  

Interesting, and I think that the Florida guy's assertions are partially true.

There is something you need to understand first - Rolex has super super super super saturated the Asian market. If I wasn't clear, I mean really really redunkulously super saturated. I am not kidding when I say a significant proportion of people who you wouldn't typically associate with Rolexes wear Rolexes. Nearly half my Singaporean lady friends got Rolexes as college graduation gifts - Air Kings and Lady Datejusts. There are (reputable and less than reputable) stores in Singapore's Chinatown district who sell almost nothing else except used Rolexes, mostly kosher, and most complete with B&P. IMO this can only impact the "brand cachet" somewhat, and not in a good way. Maybe in the USA a Rolex is still a special watch. In Asia it's just a special watch.

The relative lack of movement of Rolex product lines also plays a part. A Sub still looks like a Sub. Datejusts are still relatively similar. Air Kings are essentially identical looking. Across the board, there is a family resemblance (horn lugs, bracelets, etc). The folk who perhaps would have bought Rolex if they were born 30 years ago now sidestep it and buy IWC because that's a little more "unique" (read: less ubiquitous), offers variety (a Big Pilot looks nothing like a Portuguese), and is likely to make the owner feel like a special flower. And perhaps lurking behind it all is the need to differentiate yourself from the generation before - do you want to be wearing your dad's watch? Your teacher's watch? Your cab driver's watch?

Maybe in the US these above 2 reasons also apply, albeit to a lesser extent?

And as disposable incomes have skyrocketed, what once was aspirational is arguably more attainable. Pateks were going at 25-35% discount just 10 short years ago - there was always a steady demand for the obvious models but for the less obvious choices in the PP lineup there simply wasn't demand. In the meantime the market matured: information became more easily available, the internet came along - more people understood why they should pay more for a Patek - and boom. Some folk (consciously or not) want to really distinguish themselves from the crowd and go boutique or esoteric or plain weird - the breadth of selection is certainly there.

Finally I think the sport vs dress distinction for watches is less significant in Asia, as traditional "western" dress codes do not apply as strongly, and maybe there is a more laissez faire approach to obvious and perhaps incongruous displays of wealth? Also, everyone is/was too busy studying - what sport??!?!! crackup[1].gif

TLDR: everyone wants to be a special flower, people are richer, everyone is spoilt for choice, no one wants to be their dad, the market matured.

Perhaps ~B~ or medtech might chime in, maybe their observations parallel mine, maybe not. It could just be the crowd I mix around with. shog[1].gif
Edited by apropos - 10/15/13 at 9:48pm
post #25655 of 48312
nice posts y'all.. looking good!
post #25656 of 48312
My Longines Retrograde Moon Phases back from warranty repair due to steam getting into the watch, I really missed the watch for 3 weeks!

post #25657 of 48312

Congrats, Wurger!

 

Apropos, thanks for a very interesting post.  I've never been to Singapore (although possibly quite soon), but I'm very interested in these kind of market phenomena.  I think it's easy coming from a European or American perspective to have a cynical view of long-standing brands.  Certainly, there is something in the British culture that makes anything well-established and popular inviting of derision somehow. It's a mixture, I think, of envy - this thread might no longer see Rolex as a premium product, God help us, but most people outside it do - and a desire to always feel special and ahead of the game.  

 

What I've found in the markets where I've specialised - the Middle East and specifically the Gulf - is that this kind of cynicism doesn't really exist yet.  On the contrary, there is a very strong culture of conformism, and although some like to express individuality e.g. through detailing their cars or expensive accessories to their local dress, they will nevertheless be reluctant to move away from a brand that is perceived as "good" or "expensive".  Everyone knows what a Rolex is, and just like a S Class Mercedes or a Toyota Landcruiser, it's considered money in the bank.  They love their brand names here, and even the most internationally exposed and privileged people would be horrified at the idea that buying what was famous was somehow un-cool.  Never mind $4500 for a Sub in the US.  I am entirely certain that I could sell one for $6k here without difficulty - the only weakness being that people generally won't buy anything used.  But boxed up and "from America" etc., it would fly. Incidentally, as today is the second day of Eid al Adha, a time when people generally treat themselves and their families, it might have been a good place to sell in the last couple of weeks!  But I digress.  

 

I think, then, that Singapore and other more prosperous Asias cities, are rather on the cusp of a transition perhaps: on one hand, big brands are still king, and we've seen enough evidence on this forum that nobody loves a label like Asians love a label (OK, a stereotype, but like most stereotypes, it has a basis in truth).    But on the other hand, in the globalised market, and especially with more and more people reading international English language blogs and even forums like this, the tastes and desires for a different kind of conformity - still imitating Europe and America, but in a more current way - are developing.  Perhaps now it's not enough to be wearing the label, but now it must be the "latest" label, and Rolex could be a victim of its own success as you said: everyone knows it's good.  But it's no longer exclusive.  Where I live, I think that stage might still be quite a few years away.  So open your used Rolex shop here (there's one, and his prices are simply unbelievable). 

post #25658 of 48312

wurger - glad you have that nice piece safely back in hand.  3 weeks is actually pretty good - I once had to wait 4 months on a Chopard L.U.C repair.

 

apropos - interesting take on Rolex in the Asian market - thanks.

post #25659 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post



Interesting, and I think that the Florida guy's assertions are partially true.

There is something you need to understand first - Rolex has super super super super saturated the Asian market. If I wasn't clear, I mean really really redunkulously super saturated. I am not kidding when I say a significant proportion of people who you wouldn't typically associate with Rolexes wear Rolexes. Nearly half my Singaporean lady friends got Rolexes as college graduation gifts - Air Kings and Lady Datejusts. There are (reputable and less than reputable) stores in Singapore's Chinatown district who sell almost nothing else except used Rolexes, mostly kosher, and most complete with B&P. IMO this can only impact the "brand cachet" somewhat, and not in a good way. Maybe in the USA a Rolex is still a special watch. In Asia it's just a special watch.

The relative lack of movement of Rolex product lines also plays a part. A Sub still looks like a Sub. Datejusts are still relatively similar. Air Kings are essentially identical looking. Across the board, there is a family resemblance (horn lugs, bracelets, etc). The folk who perhaps would have bought Rolex if they were born 30 years ago now sidestep it and buy IWC because that's a little more "unique" (read: less ubiquitous), offers variety (a Big Pilot looks nothing like a Portuguese), and is likely to make the owner feel like a special flower. And perhaps lurking behind it all is the need to differentiate yourself from the generation before - do you want to be wearing your dad's watch? Your teacher's watch? Your cab driver's watch?

Maybe in the US these above 2 reasons also apply, albeit to a lesser extent?

And as disposable incomes have skyrocketed, what once was aspirational is arguably more attainable. Pateks were going at 25-35% discount just 10 short years ago - there was always a steady demand for the obvious models but for the less obvious choices in the PP lineup there simply wasn't demand. In the meantime the market matured: information became more easily available, the internet came along - more people understood why they should pay more for a Patek - and boom. Some folk (consciously or not) want to really distinguish themselves from the crowd and go boutique or esoteric or plain weird - the breadth of selection is certainly there.

Finally I think the sport vs dress distinction for watches is less significant in Asia, as traditional "western" dress codes do not apply as strongly, and maybe there is a more laissez faire approach to obvious and perhaps incongruous displays of wealth? Also, everyone is/was too busy studying - what sport??!?!! crackup[1].gif

TLDR: everyone wants to be a special flower, people are richer, everyone is spoilt for choice, no one wants to be their dad, the market matured.

Perhaps ~B~ or medtech might chime in, maybe their observations parallel mine, maybe not. It could just be the crowd I mix around with. shog[1].gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post
 

Congrats, Wurger!

 

Apropos, thanks for a very interesting post.  I've never been to Singapore (although possibly quite soon), but I'm very interested in these kind of market phenomena.  I think it's easy coming from a European or American perspective to have a cynical view of long-standing brands.  Certainly, there is something in the British culture that makes anything well-established and popular inviting of derision somehow. It's a mixture, I think, of envy - this thread might no longer see Rolex as a premium product, God help us, but most people outside it do - and a desire to always feel special and ahead of the game.  

 

What I've found in the markets where I've specialised - the Middle East and specifically the Gulf - is that this kind of cynicism doesn't really exist yet.  On the contrary, there is a very strong culture of conformism, and although some like to express individuality e.g. through detailing their cars or expensive accessories to their local dress, they will nevertheless be reluctant to move away from a brand that is perceived as "good" or "expensive".  Everyone knows what a Rolex is, and just like a S Class Mercedes or a Toyota Landcruiser, it's considered money in the bank.  They love their brand names here, and even the most internationally exposed and privileged people would be horrified at the idea that buying what was famous was somehow un-cool.  Never mind $4500 for a Sub in the US.  I am entirely certain that I could sell one for $6k here without difficulty - the only weakness being that people generally won't buy anything used.  But boxed up and "from America" etc., it would fly. Incidentally, as today is the second day of Eid al Adha, a time when people generally treat themselves and their families, it might have been a good place to sell in the last couple of weeks!  But I digress.  

 

I think, then, that Singapore and other more prosperous Asias cities, are rather on the cusp of a transition perhaps: on one hand, big brands are still king, and we've seen enough evidence on this forum that nobody loves a label like Asians love a label (OK, a stereotype, but like most stereotypes, it has a basis in truth).    But on the other hand, in the globalised market, and especially with more and more people reading international English language blogs and even forums like this, the tastes and desires for a different kind of conformity - still imitating Europe and America, but in a more current way - are developing.  Perhaps now it's not enough to be wearing the label, but now it must be the "latest" label, and Rolex could be a victim of its own success as you said: everyone knows it's good.  But it's no longer exclusive.  Where I live, I think that stage might still be quite a few years away.  So open your used Rolex shop here (there's one, and his prices are simply unbelievable). 

 

These posts from apropos and mimo I quite loved.  apropos - LOL on the "busy studying."  Haha.  Don't want to get an "A-" after all - the "Asian F"!!! :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by wurger View Post

My Longines Retrograde Moon Phases back from warranty repair due to steam getting into the watch, I really missed the watch for 3 weeks!

 

 

'Grats on the return, wurger.  That does appear fast compared to, say, published or reported Patek service times for even the smallest of complaints.  With that said, my wife's Aquanaut encountered similar issues with the dial fogging up; Patek got to it and got it back to me in two days, but only I think because they didn't find anything wrong with it.  They speculated that the crown wasn't screwed down properly for some reason.  Did your service people say gaskets needed to be replaced, etc?

post #25660 of 48312
Quote:
the "Asian F"!!!

 

:lol:

post #25661 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wurger View Post

My Longines Retrograde Moon Phases back from warranty repair due to steam getting into the watch, I really missed the watch for 3 weeks!


 

'Grats on the return, wurger.  That does appear fast compared to, say, published or reported Patek service times for even the smallest of complaints.  With that said, my wife's Aquanaut encountered similar issues with the dial fogging up; Patek got to it and got it back to me in two days, but only I think because they didn't find anything wrong with it.  They speculated that the crown wasn't screwed down properly for some reason.  Did your service people say gaskets needed to be replaced, etc?

Thanks for the support guys!

Yes, the boutique sales told me that they had to send to Swatch Service Centre Melbourne, since the service centre in Sydney closed down, talking about lack of interest in watches in Australia, so the turnaround time could be faster if I lived in Melbourne.

He told me that they cleaned up the crystal and did a partial service, and the service docket doesn't give any information other than stating the scratch and wear condition of my watch before repair. confused.gif

So I called up Swatch service; the lady told me that they cleaned up the crystal, but found no damage in any parts, they did replace the gasket and tested the watch for timekeeping before returning the watch back to the boutique.

She also told me something that never crossed my mind before, while I never wore the watch in a shower, but by leaving the watch in the bathroom, the heat and steam creates a much bigger hazard to the gasket compare to wearing the watch while washing my hands and water flows onto the watch.
post #25662 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by wurger View Post

 by leaving the watch in the bathroom, the heat and steam creates a much bigger hazard to the gasket compare to wearing the watch while washing my hands and water flows onto the watch.

 

True.  The other one to look out for is going outside from a cold, dry, air-conditioned building or car, into a warm and very humid climate. All the moisture from the air condenses on your watch just like it does on your sunglasses, and if the watch isn't airtight, inside as well as out. Was almost the end of Uncle Saddam...

 

Something to bear in mind with cameras, too.  I now leave mine outside in the car to get hot before using it in humid weather.

post #25663 of 48312
On the wrist today - DeVille Hour Vision:

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post #25664 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gauss17 View Post

My next purchase, it's so good.

Thanks man, I wish you luck acquiring one! Can't wait to see it posted here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

No argument here - the number of things I would change about that watch = zero.

Thanks man. I have to say, one of my favorite things about the watch is that it is pretty universally liked. It is hard to take a strong stance against it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Love the watch and the pairing of those shoes and sock!  Nice job Nuke!

Thanks Dino! I am working on building up my work wardrobe once again. I think I am good on the shoe game though!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wurger View Post

My Longines Retrograde Moon Phases back from warranty repair due to steam getting into the watch, I really missed the watch for 3 weeks!

Excellent! It looks like they did a superb job. It looks very lovely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

On the wrist today - DeVille Hour Vision:

Very nice, the sapphire crystal sides are very cool. I am surprised I do not see more Deville's around, they are a great looking watch.
post #25665 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post



Interesting, and I think that the Florida guy's assertions are partially true.

There is something you need to understand first - Rolex has super super super super saturated the Asian market. If I wasn't clear, I mean really really redunkulously super saturated. I am not kidding when I say a significant proportion of people who you wouldn't typically associate with Rolexes wear Rolexes. Nearly half my Singaporean lady friends got Rolexes as college graduation gifts - Air Kings and Lady Datejusts. There are (reputable and less than reputable) stores in Singapore's Chinatown district who sell almost nothing else except used Rolexes, mostly kosher, and most complete with B&P. IMO this can only impact the "brand cachet" somewhat, and not in a good way. Maybe in the USA a Rolex is still a special watch. In Asia it's just a special watch.

The relative lack of movement of Rolex product lines also plays a part. A Sub still looks like a Sub. Datejusts are still relatively similar. Air Kings are essentially identical looking. Across the board, there is a family resemblance (horn lugs, bracelets, etc). The folk who perhaps would have bought Rolex if they were born 30 years ago now sidestep it and buy IWC because that's a little more "unique" (read: less ubiquitous), offers variety (a Big Pilot looks nothing like a Portuguese), and is likely to make the owner feel like a special flower. And perhaps lurking behind it all is the need to differentiate yourself from the generation before - do you want to be wearing your dad's watch? Your teacher's watch? Your cab driver's watch?

Maybe in the US these above 2 reasons also apply, albeit to a lesser extent?

And as disposable incomes have skyrocketed, what once was aspirational is arguably more attainable. Pateks were going at 25-35% discount just 10 short years ago - there was always a steady demand for the obvious models but for the less obvious choices in the PP lineup there simply wasn't demand. In the meantime the market matured: information became more easily available, the internet came along - more people understood why they should pay more for a Patek - and boom. Some folk (consciously or not) want to really distinguish themselves from the crowd and go boutique or esoteric or plain weird - the breadth of selection is certainly there.

Finally I think the sport vs dress distinction for watches is less significant in Asia, as traditional "western" dress codes do not apply as strongly, and maybe there is a more laissez faire approach to obvious and perhaps incongruous displays of wealth? Also, everyone is/was too busy studying - what sport??!?!! crackup[1].gif
 

I haven't been to Singapore nor have a met anyone from there so I can't comment directly about that.  But even 20 years ago, a friend of mine from Hong Kong said, everyone there has a Rolex, from the cab drivers to the waiters.  Her family was very wealthy and they only bought new watches.  She and her family would never consider pre-owned watches, cars or anything else.  It always had to be brand new.  She said her parents both had all gold "Presidents" because that's something all successful people in HK own, but they preferred and also owned Cartier, Chopards, and I remember her Dad giving her Mom an all gold Piaget Dancer on a gold bracelet.  So Rolex being seen as common in Asia isn't something that is a new phenomena.

 

I agree a largely stable and unchanged product line up could be part of Rolex's problem.  While I like and have considered a Blue/Black GMT myself (hoped to see one when I was in NYC last week, but never did), I haven't bought a Rolex in 8 years.  Mostly, because I have owned several models that have interested me, and nothing new was grabbing my attention.  So I branched out an bought watches from other brands.  I'm sure other collectors in a variety of countries felt the same way if they have collected for a while.  

 

The Patek market was the same in the US as you describe. Until roughly 10 years ago or so you could walk into any Patek dealer and get 30-35% off most Pateks, other than say a 5070 (and even those had dropped in value to about 19,000 on the secondary market for a few years once it was discovered that Patek was not ending production after making 250 of them).

 

Still, with such a large price difference between entry level Rolex and PP or Langes, I just don't know that PP or Lange are the real cause of a slow down in Rolex's sales new or used.  In addition, with Patek making something like 50,000 watches and Lange making 5,000-8,000 I wouldn't think that would be a big chunk out the the million new watch sales Rolex intends to make.  If something were going to affect Rolex's sales, be it new or used I would think it would be an increase in quality and innovative offerings from brands more similarly priced, such as Panerai, Cartier, IWC, Breitling, Omega etc.

 

As for sports watch vs. dress watch, I wasn't speaking just relative to "Western dress codes" which is why I mentioned "ALS doesn't offer a sports watch so functionally they don't have anything the competes directly with Rolex", and that the the Nautilus and Aquanaut are more delicate than a Sub/GMT/ or Ex2.  A friend that owned a restaurant had a Nautilus for 4 years. He sold it because it could not withstand the abuse in the kitchen.  It would end up sustaining some type of repetitive or strong shocks that would lead to the watch stopping or not keeping time properly, and then going back to the Henri Stern Agency for repairs every 6-8 months.  He said he wore a Sub for 10 years doing the same tasks and never had an issue. I know people that have gone hunting, big game fishing for Marlins, auto racing, diving, and done underwater bridge repairs while wearing Rolex watches (usually Subs and SD for the water related activities).  I myself have worn a Rolex for certain rugged activities, for which I wouldn't even consider wearing a PP, ALS, AP, VC etc.  I know some people might say who cares and wear a PP to go hunting, big game fishing, or diving...and I've also seen a guy driving a Ferrari Testarossa in a snow storm in New England (but that is far from the norm).  I think if someone is in the market for a sports watch to wear for very rugged activities and they specifically do not want a Rolex, most likely those buyers will consider offerings from IWC, Breitling, Panerai, Omega, or maybe some other brand with a reputation for building rugged watches. 

 

Sure if a major market loses interest it will affect the secondary market in many places, but I'm just a little skeptical that PP and ALS have a lot to do with it.

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