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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...) - Page 1646  

post #24676 of 48312
Looks good, cyc!

Kaplan just barely nudged you out to win the thread for today LOL.
post #24677 of 48312
Originally Posted by SirGrotius View Post

Originally Posted by cyc wid it View Post

Went with this in the end:

Can't go wrong with a Datejust. What size is the watch?

pretty sure it's a 36mm
post #24678 of 48312
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

Originally Posted by Kaplan View Post


  Warning: Kate Upton in a state of undress. (Click to show)

Not that I know or have seen every single photo taken of Kate, but it disturbs me that I haven't seen this specific one till now.  Booyah to Kaplan for sharing! Thanks!

big like! Kaplan
post #24679 of 48312
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post

Probably the best looking new Rolex available, but I wish it were 40mm.

I really like the new Ex2. I'm also glad that it retained the brushed lugs & bracelet center. I think it transitioned to its new size far better than many other enlarged Rolexes.
Originally Posted by bawlin View Post

Congrats on the pickup but can someone care to explain to me the appeal of the Explorer II? I just don't get it. I know it has a huge fanbase, which makes me feel even more stupid for not understanding what the fuss is all about.

For many interest in the Ex2 was actually quite low compared to Subs, GMTs, and Daytonas. It's only been with the reivision & the return of the vintage Ex2 style orange hand that interest in the Ex2 has grown. I've owned the prior model 16570 for 12 years. The appeal when I got it was it flies a bit under the radar. Everyone that has some reasonable knowledge knows the Sub. Many people even mistaken a GMT for a Sub as both have rotating bezels (and those not so "in the know" aren't going to notice the extra hande or difference in bezel markings. But take the design of a GMT put a fixed steel bezel on it and most people don't notice it. I've had comment on occasion about my Daytona, Sub ( or GMT when I had one), but I've never had a comment about my EX2.

Also the steel bezel give the a Ex2 a slightly dressier look than Subs & GMTs with rotating/ colored bezels. It's not everyone's favorite Rolex, but it can be a great choice for those who want a sport Rolex that's a bit more stealthy than the more frequently seen Subs & GMTs.
post #24680 of 48312
Thanks. It's a 36mm as wurger said. Definitely smaller (and feels smaller if that makes sense) than the SM300. Probably won't be picking up another watch for a while - hopefully not too long though.
post #24681 of 48312
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post

You could get a nice vintage Omega in that price range. 


As for new:

LOVE white face Stowa's!
Originally Posted by SirGrotius View Post

Probably a little obsessive, but I loved the Explorer II so much that I picked up a black dial version to complement my white dial. smile.gif

Very nice!
post #24682 of 48312
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

Apropos - you are living in the past with your opinion of Chinese factories. My company has been trading in Europe for over 90 years and I can honestly say that our Beijing factory has the most modern plant and machinery housed in a newest purpose made building of any of our facilities. People in the West underestimate Chinese quality at their peril. Yes of course there is some s....y stuff still made but the future for China is no longer as a low wage economy and in a very few years it will be the largest economy in the world.

I will be very interested to see what B comes up with.

Thank you Culverwood, I am merely an amateur watch designer but a relatively experienced watch collector, so I hope punters like and enjoy my designs. For me, a watch is like a pair of fine shoes. These are accessories first and foremost, and should constitute an understated component of a gentlemen's ensemble. A watch should not stand out in a thuggish manner; a huge, gaudy multi-coloured watch is like a pair of bright blue exotic shoes.

Mind you I am hardly a shrinking violet (regularly wear Testarossa red butterfly loafers) but in some cases bright colours can harmonise with an ensemble, although a huge diamond-encrusted monstrosity is more suited to the rubbish bin.

And agree with you, there are some bad hats in China selling rubbish, just as there are in any country (food scandals for example are hardly limited to China). But it would be tragic to overlook the very many amazing craftsmen that still exist in what, to an extent, remains a very traditional country. These masters are mostly to be found in the rural parts of China that have yet to be industrialised, and so preserve the ancient way of doing things.
post #24683 of 48312
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

- B - , very well said - slow clap.

I'd love to see some pics of completed watches posted here.

Thank you RogerP.

Will be posting up pictures of my Cream dial shortly.

The completed prototype watch will also be posted up in the next few days. I am waiting for a bespoke strap from SF favourite Hughes Handcrafted, to properly show its beauty off!
post #24684 of 48312
Originally Posted by Newcomer View Post

Well said both Apropos and ~ B ~. Of course, it is this kind of honesty that makes this thread so great, and it is even better when tough criticism is met with a tough and well-thought out response.

Absolutely. Thank you Apropos and Newcomer for the responses, and let the tough criticisms flow (it is only thus that we can improve!).
post #24685 of 48312
double post.
post #24686 of 48312
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

Thanks B for your thought out reply. I just read through my previous post and I sound like an asshole. I wrote it in the early hours of the morning (see the timestamp) and was trying to say it all in an off the cuff manner, but whatever my intentions it came across pretty wrong, and I apologise for any offence caused.

Major facepalm on confusing Seagull and BWF. Major facepalm. No walking away from that, definitely have egg on my face.

I appear to have misinterpreted your sig as reading like a spec sheet. It still does to me. Can I ask why you've settled on certain design features e.g. 3/4 plate, SG chatons, and engraved balance cocks? I ask this because there are strong parallels IMO with various German brands and I am curious as to why these deliberate choices were made.

If I may make some more suggestions - link that WUS thread in your sig. IMO avoid negative advertising (i.e. pointing out how the big Swiss manufacturers cut corners).

Finally not sure if this has occurred to you but your logo looks not only like a Chinese tripod cauldron but also a stylised pallet. That is pure awesomeness.
Hmm, forgive me for not being completely convinced by your declaration of invulnerability, given you own(ed) or are planning to own a Speedy, a Zenith with an El Primero movement, and a Rolex Sub. I am pretty sure you have a soft spot for the Max Bill watch, JLC, and more than a bit of affection for Omega. It doesn't add up... to me anyway peepwall[1].gif

When it comes down to it, heritage and history are IMO really significant factors with watches.

99% of the "modern" mechanical watches we discuss and salivate over on this thread really are not that different from their vintage counterparts. The format is still the same - all have lugs, crowns, bezels, hands, and come in 4 or 5 different case shapes. Time is still displayed in the same way with swiveling hands. Most bring nothing new to the table horologically, or are variations on a theme - high beat movements, bigger power reserves, etc. The essential layout of the power train hasn't changed - spring, balance, pallet, regulator, wheels all held together with bridges and plates. Nearly all complications are a century old, or older. Your in house movement is really just the wheel reinvented to justify a price increase - most in house movements bring nothing new to the table, and may perform worse in terms of reliability, serviceability and parts availability.

So you are wearing an anachronism, and a paradox ("modern mechanical watch"). Why? Probably heritage and history. stirpot.gif

No harm done Apropos, and thank you for your gracious apology. No need for sorries among friends. smile.gif (I think we have a mutual friend in Gshen of Vanda btw)

And no worries with confusing Sea-Gull and Beijing. It is quite common among those not intimately familiar with the Chinese Big 3 watchmakers. Beijing and Sea-Gull both produce mid- to high-end watches, but Beijing is much smaller production (10% of Sea-Gull) and more focussed on the high-end spectrum with its in-house resonance watch, freesprung balance tourbillons, and recently a double-axis and even triple-axis tourbillon. It formerly had the services of a Chinese AHCI master, who now works for me on some of my upcoming projects.biggrin.gif

I did not intend my sig to read like a spec sheet. It is just a quick summary of the various features of the special movement in the watch. The whole lowdown and the full press release are all available on my blog.

The 3/4 plate, chatons and engraved balance cocks are not exclusive to German watches (even in the modern era, Moser and a few independents use chatons, engraved bridges are used by MB&F if I recall, and almost all tourbillons use a 3/4 plate architecture) and in fact the Germans adopted these 3 features from the English pocketwatches of the 18th and 19th century. You will, I'm sure, know the story of how Made in Germany used to be a mark of inferior manufacture imposed by the English on German export pocketwatches. It was because German watches at the time imitated English watch and movement designs, so the mark of provenance was necessary to distinguish them.

Watch designs are normally limited to the movements available (even Patek and Vacheron face this same constraint). If I were to develop a new movement, it would take 3-5 years and about 5 million dollars. This money would have to be amortised over my 100 watches. This is why I am using one of China's prettiest time-only handwound movements, the SB18 (the B24 resonance movement is also extremely attractive). My SB18 is also a special one, being the 6th and latest iteration from Beijing. This new movement is more stable than the old one and my watches are the first on the global market with these movements. And of course, for those getting the hand-engraved version, these 50 special movements are veritably priceless in collector and historical value.

In the future I am definitely planning to have true bespoke movements for my 6 digit watches, in fact I am already developing a new movement together with my AHCI master friend.

Thanks for the suggestions. Do you think linking a WUS thread is appropriate for a sig?

Oh thank you, it just occurred to me as well. Yeah it does look sort of like a pallet fork.

Send on more criticism if you have any!


post #24687 of 48312
Here is the finished dial of the Rice Paper Cream Dial Edition of the CELADON Imperial.

The dial colour takes its name from the esteemed Xuan paper of Jingxian County in Anhui Province, an area renowned for the finest rice paper in the world for more than two thousand years. More than one hundred laborious steps are required to produce Xuan paper in the proper manner. The quality of this paper is so exceptional that paintings and calligraphy drawn on Xuan paper from the Warring States period (475 BC - 221 BC) still exist in museums and private collections.

Note the sharpness of the printing of the four calligraphic characters, and the depth and three-dimensionality of the plum blossom guilloche. Our dials are produced solely by China's finest dial craftsmen.

The plum blossom is foremost among the Four Noble Flowers in traditional Chinese culture. Because it blooms most brilliantly amidst the ermine snow and icy cold of winter, the plum blossom or "Mei" is a symbol of the triumph of the human spirit in the face of tremendous adversity. It embodies the indomitable spirit of the millions of people who perished in defence of their homeland against aggression and unimaginable evil, as the original Flower of Nanjing. Every spring, millions journey to Nanjing during the annual Plum Blossom Festival to bask in the sublime beauty and perfumed air of 35,000 plum blossom trees, many of which are centuries-old.

The Imperial itself, with its signature guilloche, resembles a plum blossom flower in full bloom covered in snow. It is the honour of CELADON to adopt this beloved icon as our House symbol.

Both the plum blossom and Xuan paper have profound connections to classical Chinese poetry, calligraphy and painting - the Three Great Arts that a Confucian scholar was expected to be exemplary in.

The applique dial signature on this dial has also been individually blued by hand over a 300 degree flame, the only watch in history to have such a feature. The sobre, elegant contrast that results between ermine dial and ennobled steel was inspired by the fine Ming dynasty imperial kiln blue-and-white "Meiping" (plum blossom vases) in our Founder's private collection.

And finally, with incalculable pride, we can announce that the finished prototype Imperial ticked its first heartbeat on the Third of September, 2013. In a few days we shall have live pictures posted of this watch, the living soul of the next chapter in the Grand Story of Chinese Horology that began five hundred years ago.

post #24688 of 48312
Originally Posted by ~ B ~ View Post

.... a pair of bright blue exotic shoes.



I resent the implication that wearing such a thing would be ungentlemanly!  Had I not been about to order your watch, the alternative purchase would be a reasonable match to this description!


But seriously...I wanted to chip in on this subject.  We've all had the occasional irritable rant online, that felt terse and logical at the time, but in retrospect sounded a little harsh.  As Nuke said, it's a testament to the quality of this thread and its participants that no jackets had to be removed and honour remains intact.  We are all friends here indeed, and fine ones it seems.


So to the matter at hand: firstly, as B has acknowledged manfully, the "Made in China" brand has its problems, and not entirely without justification.  But to my mind, that's really why what he's doing is so admirable.  When I was a young child in the 70s, the expression "Jap crap" was not uncommon when talking about imported goods.  Considering the woeful state of British manufacturing at the time, that stereotype was rather ironic, but nevertheless not completely wrong.  Japan had moved to an export-driven economy, with many products based on duplication, incredibly tough demands on industrial workers, and a competitively-priced currency.  The results were a mixed bag: some manufacturers began to move their supply chains to Japan, and the resentment at "exporting jobs" from Europe and the US only fueled the prejudice against lower-cost Japanese imports.  After about twenty years of trying, Japan made its serious entry into Western consumer goods and technology markets.  It wasn't really until the 80s that the idea of a premium Japanese brand became credible: I'd give that credit to Sony, that managed to deliver both its own innovation and a reputation for quality, that transformed the subconscious associations of the phrase "Made in Japan".  And so Datsun becomes Nissan becomes Infinity.  Etc.  Some people even buy Seikos. :)


The same process can be applied to Taiwan, and Korea: initially known for cheap rubbish, now I'm personally working with top technology from the former, and as for the latter, well, Samsung is bitch-slapping the ghost of Steve Jobs and you can buy a big Hyundai V8 and forget it's not German.  China will eventually go the same way, at least in part.  So back to our friend B. It takes some big balls, I think, to resolve on single-handedly creating a premium product from China, when China is probably still a decade behind Korea and three behind Japan in its coming of international age.


And I admire people with balls. I'm a great believer that nothing is impossible, there are just varying degrees of difficult (and, in most cases, difficult just means expensive).  In this case, I do think B has some issues with the Maison Celadon brand, that I hope he doesn't mind my raising in public, as a response to Apropos' initial polemic:


My concern, put simply, is that it's too cheap.  Not that I mind from a personal point of view - I'd love to have one of these watches and indeed more than one. What's going into them is so full of heart, purpose, purity of intent and integrity, that I find the prospect of being "in at the ground floor" so to speak, compelling.  But what I'm asking myself is how many like me are there?


There are maybe tens of people who read this thread.  Hundreds, even thousands, who've read the posts on watch forums and as a result, the Tumblr page with the details. For argument's sake, let's say there are ten thousand people who, however fleetingly, have been aware that B has designed a watch and is having it made in China.  It's a fair assumption that some of them are planning on buying a new watch in the near future.  But how many options do they have?  How many other threads are there on that forum, or how many have been mentioned in this thread in the last month?  If one in a hundred are planning on buying a watch soon, that's a hundred people ready to buy this.  But how to persuade them that this is the one over, say, a similarly-priced Stowa mentioned above.  This is more special than a Stowa.  But it's also completely unknown. In fact it doesn't exist yet.  And it's not made in Switzerland on the inside and Germany on the outside.  It's Chinese. to the bone.


Hence the emphasis on premium brand, which is right.  But then the price doesn't reflect the positioning: logically speaking, a $1000 watch should be showing itself off in the "Poor Man's" thread (where I should probably be, too, but this one is just prettier..), emphasising that for the price of a Tissot or a Longines, you can get hand-finished uniqueness.  And the prices aren't any higher than a mid-range mass-produced Sea Gull.  That would be one way to go about it.  But the brand identity of tiny, obscure, artisan ateliers, of venerable Chinese masters in exclusive Swiss watch-elf elites, of golden chatons and hand-engraved balance cocks, doesn't play the "value for money" card.  Value for money is a Kia.  But the language around this brand is of a Morgan.


And if you don't mind my beating the car analogy to death, there is a problem with that: a Morgan is an old-fashioned looking car on a modern chassis, made in a shed by skilled artisans.  But so is a kit car.  One costs $100k+, one costs $20k.  And even if the cheaper one looks just as nice, is made with just as much skill, and goes even faster, it's not as desirable.  Part of the desirability, the credibility of a Morgan made in a shed, is that it's expensive.  That's reassuring.  It matches the brand identity of specialness, originality, exclusivity.  It matches the siren song to the collector that says "only you men of taste and knowledge would get this".


A thousand dollar watch based on a BWC movement is always going to sound like a kit car.  A cheap base, put in a case made up by a small company and marketed as looking like something retro and expensive.  Now I believe that B is actually building a Morgan: the Celadon isn't just a fibreglass body on top of a Nissan Sunny. It's a hand-crafted alloy wonder, with significant bespoke engine modifications and an artisan-stitched leather interior.  But something tells me that it needs to sound just a little more like what it is, and cost a little more as a result.


Apart from the price, the other thing that sets a premium brand apart from an economy brand - of similar quality - is the fluff.  The brochures, the website, the fancy boutiques with wood paneling and well-tailored sales associates.  It all appeals to that air of snobbery.  Omega sell a decent watch for under $3000 dollars.  But their solus boutiques are every bit as marble-clad and carefully colour-themed as those where I looked at pieces priced a hundred times higher and more.  And of course, that's why their cheapest watch is $3k, not $1k.  I'm under no illusions that a basic three hand Omega on a strap costs significantly more to produce than a Hamilton.  But it costs a lot more to sell.  The boutiques, the brochures, the advertising...have to be a thousand bucks per watch in themselves.


So that's where all this stuff meets: I'm not suggesting that James Bond has to wear a Celadon in the next movie, or that B's Maison has to sponsor Wimbledon and the Americas Cup.  But I do think that at some point, in order to actually survive and grow, Maison Celadon has to look like an established maker with a few of an established maker's trimmings.  There are only so many romantics reading watch forums who are going to sign up at the beginning.  Sooner or later, Google has to know the name, a website has to inform on a network of retailers or just contain an online shop.  A glossy ad, even a glossy Facebook ad, might have to exist somewhere at least.  A review on a watch site shouldn't be hard to engineer.  The principles and the stories can sell this watch to the non-aficionado just as well, and at some point will have to, and that means acting like it's something for sale as well as an exclusive club for watch-lovers. 


I believe that this product can exist as that genuine unicorn, the premium Chinese brand.  But for the next batch at least, a Tumblr page and posts on a forum will be inadequate, even a hindrance.  It needs to act bigger, even if that means a bigger price too, and the bigger price in itself would be a mark of confidence.  Get a proper website, with real pictures and a means of ordering.  Don't "save shipping costs" with a lighter packaging: that's all well and good, but shouldn't "premium Chinese" mean a heavy, lacquered, monogrammed hardwood case, even if it comes with a leather "travel case" inside?  And a "basic leather strap" is OK, but show some of those fancy upgrade options, costed, and at least put a croc or something interesting on the top model as standard - the word was "premium".  Act more premium and don't be shy. :)

post #24689 of 48312
mimo, thanks for the time in writing all this, just finished reading it!
post #24690 of 48312

Very good post Mimo!  


I have thought about raising some questions and points but have resisted.  

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