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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...) - Page 1287  

post #19291 of 48312
"your watch is disliked!"

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post #19292 of 48312
Interesting observation, apropos. However, I always thought that the finishing on base Pateks tended to be near immaculate, even if less elaborate. Anyway, at least you understand the distinction I'm making. Blued screws and gold chatons don't make a Lange better finished than an IWC.

On the 3531: there is a cult following for the watch, but it is generally unloved, particularly as compared to "real" Portgueses. It was only produced for five years (1995-1999/2000), so there are relatively few on the market. Look at pricing on the secondary market. Retail prices when new were ~$5,000 for the steel version. You can pick one up now for $3,000. In contrast, the regular production 5001 Portuguese retailed for around $10,000 when it debuted in 2004/2005, is still in production, and sells used for $9,000 and up. The 1993 Portuguese Jubilee, on which the 3531 was based, tells an even starker story. Its retail price was $8,500 in steel, and now sells for more than double that (~$17,000).
post #19293 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by AriGold View Post

"your watch is disliked!"

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Say it aint so!  How will I ever survive the disaFooval? biggrin.gif

 

Well, I guess it's a good thing I don't own it anymore - I'd just have to chuck it in the trash.

 

A 40% difference between retail and used is hardly shocking within the context of the secondary market.  Heck, a great many models are available brand new with a 30% discount.  I suspect that kind of drop is not at all unusual even within the context of the IWC lineup itself - the Aquatimer and Portuguese Chrono spring to mind.  I doubt that it signifies that such watches are uniquely unloved.

post #19294 of 48312
The discount is actually quite remarkable given that other Portugueses, including the currently made 5001, fare so much better.
post #19295 of 48312
Roger- how much did you end up getting rid of it for?
post #19296 of 48312
Roger - Whoah, Whoah Whoah - you SOLD IT?!

j/k - I'm glad you were able to enjoy it. Seriously I've never heard of anyone having anything but glowing praise for that particular watch, but at the same time it's hard to doubt the FOO.

R

PS - I got my 7 day BNIB from and AD for nearly 30% off. But that was when the US was in an economic slump, and dealers couldn't give them away.. Just lucky I guess..
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

Say it aint so!  How will I ever survive the disaFooval? biggrin.gif

Well, I guess it's a good thing I don't own it anymore - I'd just have to chuck it in the trash.

A 40% difference between retail and used is hardly shocking within the context of the secondary market.  Heck, a great many models are available brand new with a 30% discount.  I suspect that kind of drop is not at all unusual even within the context of the IWC lineup itself - the Aquatimer and Portuguese Chrono spring to mind.  I doubt that it signifies that such watches are uniquely unloved.
post #19297 of 48312
I got my 5001 for nearly 30% off retail as well. However, the used prices have climbed with the retail prices. So, the margin is small and I could sell mine used for more than the price I paid new. The same cannot be said of the 3531. Prices speak truth more than internet chatter.
post #19298 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I got my 5001 for nearly 30% off retail as well. However, the used prices have climbed with the retail prices. So, the margin is small and I could sell mine used for more than the price I paid new. The same cannot be said of the 3531. Prices speak truth more than internet chatter.

 So this "truth" would hold that the Portuguese chrono, Aquatimer and any other IWC (or watch from any other brand) which sells for 40% of its retail price on the used market is uniquely unloved?  Sorry, I find it remarkably easy to doubt the Foo.  He seems to be confusing particular watches which hold their value exceptionally well with a brand-wide or industry-wide norm.  As good an example of internet chatter as I can think of.

 

Check out this 'real' Portuguese hand wind with in-house movement being offered at 35% off retail - guess that one is only sort of unloved?

 

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-iwc-545408-hand-wound-portuguese-44mm-838056.html

 

Anyone who goes to www.watchrecon.com and does a 30 day search on IWCs offered on the secondary market will very quickly conclude that used IWC watches selling for more than their original retail prices very much represent the exception to the rule. 


Edited by RogerP - 3/25/13 at 5:35pm
post #19299 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by AriGold View Post

Roger- how much did you end up getting rid of it for?

 

I bought it used for around $3k, sold it for the same or maybe a little bit more. 

post #19300 of 48312
I suspect that the price discount on the 3531 (assuming there is one) reflects the more recent market appetite for larger watches, rather than a collective disdain for this model in particular. It seems like fewer people are looking for 35 - 36mm watches. Having said that, I have the impression that some IWC models really do suffer in the secondary market.

This watch is a subtle watch, as RogerP suggests. It doesn't hit you over the head. It has a great Jaeger movement. Chicks dig it.
post #19301 of 48312
Actually, you're just proving my point. The Portuguese Chrono and Aquatimer are not as well valued by collectors and enthusiasts. The prices tell the ultimate story. Why you think the prices would lie, I have no idea. But, in any event, the horological background is just as telling.

The Port. Chrono was conceived as a low-cost option following the popularity of the in-house movement Jubilee in 1993. It has never been well-respected as a pure Portuguese given it's lowly Valjoux movement, which adding insult to injury, is far too small for the classic 42mm Portuguese dial and case profile. It is clear from the side view that the 42mm face is merely a facade. The diameter of the rest of the case is much smaller. Hence, you get a sort of mushroom-like profile from the side. From a design and aesthetics perspective, that is a huge flaw and blatant announcement of cost-sensitive compromise.

The Aquatimer has gone through three major overhauls since the early nineties. Each version has looked completely different from the one previous. Why? Because sales were never great. If they were, you would see much more continuity in design. You can still find NOS Aquatimers from previous designs at a steep discount.

I have no idea why you think prices are not a good indication of desirability. They are the best indication.
post #19302 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Allez View Post

I suspect that the price discount on the 3531 (assuming there is one) reflects the more recent market appetite for larger watches, rather than a collective disdain for this model in particular. It seems like fewer people are looking for 35 - 36mm watches. Having said that, I have the impression that some IWC models really do suffer in the secondary market.

This watch is a subtle watch, as RogerP suggests. It doesn't hit you over the head. It has a great Jaegre movement. Chicks dig it.

Perhaps there is some impact on value due to the large watch trend. However, the main factors that drive watch collectibility are just as explanatory. One factor is "purity," which can admittedly be construed in many ways. The design of the 3531 in inherently impure--a downsized replica of a true icon, whose chief quality was its size. On top of that, the movement is not in-house. JLC ebauches are nice, but it matters to IWC collectors and watch collectors in general whether an IWC watch has an IWC movement in it. So, the existence of true-sized Portuguese watches with in-house movements is probably most to blame for the lower demand for the 3531.

Anyway, the watch never sold that well. For a long time you could get NOS ones. Five years is a short run for watch with a distinct case and dial. At the end, we know that the 3531 does not retain value as well as more pure-bred Portuguese models. In fact, its value retention is much worse. That alone should be enough to show that its desirability is relatively low. I'm not sure why I'm taking heat for explaining why water flowing downhill is flowing downhill when others are arguing it's flowing upward.
post #19303 of 48312
This does make sense. The 5001 has managed to remain "pure" and free from too much change, which I guess means demand for its current aesthetic is still high. I understand what you mean about IWC's AT, and though I love them, I often hear others lament about how their styling is just missing the boat - explaining why their value in the secondary market isn't as strong. It's why the Rolex Sub is so strong - little change, and increasing prices for essentially the same watch for many years..
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Actually, you're just proving my point. The Portuguese Chrono and Aquatimer are not as well valued by collectors and enthusiasts. The prices tell the ultimate story. Why you think the prices would lie, I have no idea. But, in any event, the horological background is just as telling.

The Port. Chrono was conceived as a low-cost option following the popularity of the in-house movement Jubilee in 1993. It has never been well-respected as a pure Portuguese given it's lowly Valjoux movement, which adding insult to injury, is far too small for the classic 42mm Portuguese dial and case profile. It is clear from the side view that the 42mm face is merely a facade. The diameter of the rest of the case is much smaller. Hence, you get a sort of mushroom-like profile from the side. From a design and aesthetics perspective, that is a huge flaw and blatant announcement of cost-sensitive compromise

The Aquatimer has gone through three major overhauls since the early nineties. Each version has looked completely different from the one previous. Why? Because sales were never great. If they were, you would see much more continuity in design. You can still find NOS Aquatimers from previous designs at a steep discount.

I have no idea why you think prices are not a good indication of desirability. They are the best indication.
post #19304 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I have no idea why you think prices are not a good indication of desirability. They are the best indication.

Obviously that is not what I wrote. I wrote that fewer people want smaller watches in recent years and that negatively affects the value of this watch. I don't think that the price discount is because of some sort of collective disdain for this watch. I also haven't done the exhaustive market survey on historical price movements of different IWC models that you appear to have done, so I will defer to your work on this.

What I do understand, with 100% clarity, is that you dislike it. So fine.
post #19305 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Allez View Post

I suspect that the price discount on the 3531 (assuming there is one) reflects the more recent market appetite for larger watches, rather than a collective disdain for this model in particular. It seems like fewer people are looking for 35 - 36mm watches. Having said that, I have the impression that some IWC models really do suffer in the secondary market.

This watch is a subtle watch, as RogerP suggests. It doesn't hit you over the head. It has a great Jaeger movement. Chicks dig it.

 

One thing is certain, it is uniqely unloved by Foo.  But that's no great loss as compared to the bonus of chicks digging it. icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

 

Oh, and your point about a discontinued small dress watch being less in demand than larger current production pieces in a market that is presently dominated by large watches is enturely valid.

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