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The Apple Discussion Thread - Page 174

post #2596 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

We also have no idea the quality of the DAC Apple has built into this adapter. The old iPhones never had the greatest DAC's built in. Do we have faith that Apple matched them with these plastic adapters they are selling? If not, your quality of music you are able to hear via any headphones plugged into these adapters will go down.

Of course I am not all that sure Apple cares about quality of music all that much at this junction. Otherwise they wouldn't be pushing $159 wireless headphones that likely sound no better then the average at best sounding headphones they have been giving us for free with the phones for years.

It seems pretty clear to me that they don't. Bluetooth is an inherently lossy way of transmitting music. The Bluetooth Developer site states:

"The term "advanced audio," therefore, should be distinguished from "Bluetooth audio," which indicates distribution of narrow band voice on SCO channels as defined in the baseband specification. ... The audio data is compressed in a proper format for efficient use of the limited bandwidth. Surround sound distribution is not included in the scope of this profile."

Of course if you are listening to an MP3 compressed to 128 kbps you might not notice anyway, but it is impossible for any Bluetooth set of headphones or speakers to reproduce the highest quality audio like headphones plugged into an analog jack can.

I still haven't seen it answered anywhere whether the Lightning port is capable of transmitting analog audio using the DAC in the iPhone. I'm sure products like the excellent AudioQuest Dragonfly Red will soon be available with a Lightning connector, but again, this is one more ($199) thing to worry about losing or breaking.

I have yet to really see any positive benefit to removing the headphone jack from an audio standpoint other than "hey, no cords!"
post #2597 of 3195
I'm fairly certain any headphones plugged into the Lightning port will need their own DAC.
post #2598 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

They are ripping off the bandaid, so to speak. People shit on them for the "courage" word but it truly is ballsy as hell.

Ah yes, the huge balls that it takes to do what several Android devices have already done (it was dumb for them too)

It isn't killing the useless analog vga port... Audio signals have to go analog at some point (because, physics), and they are already going analog in the phone to feed the speakers... And to feed the analog connections in the lightning cable. So cutting the jack is really only that. The rest of the hardware is all still there, but you need a dongle or a proprietary headphone to access it.

Steve's dongle just retracted into his body in the grave...
post #2599 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jr Mouse View Post

I'm fairly certain any headphones plugged into the Lightning port will need their own DAC.

I guess that's why I'm still confused. Even an inexpensive external DAC like a FiiO is still $50 or so. If Apple's Lightning to 3.5mm headphone jack connector is $9, is there a super cheap DAC in there or is it somehow passing along an analog signal from the iPhone's internal DAC?
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

And to feed the analog connections in the lightning cable.

Are there analog connections in Lightning? Everything I can find online seems to state that it is only a digital connection.
post #2600 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

Ah yes, the huge balls that it takes to do what several Android devices have already done (it was dumb for them too)

It isn't killing the useless analog vga port... Audio signals have to go analog at some point (because, physics), and they are already going analog in the phone to feed the speakers... And to feed the analog connections in the lightning cable. So cutting the jack is really only that. The rest of the hardware is all still there, but you need a dongle or a proprietary headphone to access it.

Steve's dongle just retracted into his body in the grave...

It does take huge balls to make that decision when you're Apple. They have so much to lose as a company and a whole lot is riding on this decision.

I'm sure they didn't take it lightly. And according to interviews with their hardware chief, it was necessary to remove the jack to fit in all the other components that make the iPhone 7 what it is today, including water resistance.

I do concede the point that the Samsung Galaxy devices are water resistant despite having a headphone jack. I also am curious to see how a thicker iPhone with no camera protrusion would be. That extra space would arguably be hugely beneficial for battery life and cramming other high tech components.

I'm just saying that the headphone jack truly is dated technology. Yes it's tried and true and there is a massive ecosystem surrounding it. But can anyone say they're surprised that we're all moving towards a wireless future?

I do think they could have gotten away with removing it next year with a radical redesign to less backlash. They could then focus on releasing the new wireless buds for a year in advance. So I'm not quite sure why they decided to go without it this year.

That said, I'm sure they have their reasons. I believe in their management's ability to make sound decisions, except for maybe Eddy Cue.
post #2601 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post

I'm just saying that the headphone jack truly is dated technology. Yes it's tried and true and there is a massive ecosystem surrounding it. But can anyone say they're surprised that we're all moving towards a wireless future?

It is dated and I'm not surprised they are moving to a wireless future as everything else is moving in that direction too, but I am surprised they are embracing technology that is verifiably worse than the current technology. Bluetooth audio cannot reproduce the quality and frequency range you can get with quality headphones plugged into the 3.5mm jack that has been around forever. Screen quality, processor speed, camera (love the two lens solution), storage capacity, etc. all keep getting better and better in each successive generation of the iPhone, but audio quality just got worse. It just seems like an odd decision considering this device started as a music player, and their reliance on iTunes, Apple Music and Beats revenue streams.
post #2602 of 3195
But the headphone jack isn't really outdated technology like the other connectors were. It is dated (as in "designed a long time ago by smart people"), but it isn't anymore outdated than buttons, and apple still has 4 of those on the phone.

As this article notes-- https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-just-demonstrated-why-people-hate-the-tech-industry-205324013.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb --The headphone jack's job is to interface with our ears, and our ears haven't changed.

If wireless is the future, why not offer wireless charging? I never use my phone's cable for anything other than charging. If I need to move files/upload pictures/whatever, I do it over wifi.

Pretty bullshit to say "wireless is the future" and then say "here's your pair of wired headphones in the box". Hilarious that those headphones won't even work with any other apple device in existence. Want to watch a movie on your macbook? Better get another pair of headphones, or find your lightning-to-3.5 dongle.
post #2603 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred G. Unn View Post

Are there analog connections in Lightning? Everything I can find online seems to state that it is only a digital connection.

There has to be...I'm not even going to bother finding a source.

The dongle is just a cable--no room for a DAC in there. And the earbuds are just the old earbuds with a new connector...again no room for a DAC.

Ergo, the lightning connector must have analog audio output.

Also, doesn't the lightning connector get used in docks with stereo break outs? The old one did, and I don't think they removed any functionality when they went lightning.
post #2604 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred G. Unn View Post

It is dated and I'm not surprised they are moving to a wireless future as everything else is moving in that direction too, but I am surprised they are embracing technology that is verifiably worse than the current technology. Bluetooth audio cannot reproduce the quality and frequency range you can get with quality headphones plugged into the 3.5mm jack that has been around forever. Screen quality, processor speed, camera (love the two lens solution), storage capacity, etc. all keep getting better and better in each successive generation of the iPhone, but audio quality just got worse. It just seems like an odd decision considering this device started as a music player, and their reliance on iTunes, iMusic, and Beats revenue streams.

I fully agree with your points. Don't get me wrong. I suspect Apple's reasoning there is that BT audio is actually "good enough."

I'm no audiophile. Most people aren't. Hell, the vast majority of iPhone users still wear the bundled pods for music. I do too.

And this is coming from someone who does appreciate good sound quality. I used to have shure earphones that were like $500 a decade back. I lost those. Yes they were great.

But I notice now for all my music listening use cases, the wire is a hinderance. It gets in the way. It limits my movements. It gets violently yanked out when caught on things (happens quite often at the gym).

It's all baby steps. It's unreasonable for us to expect them to have the ultimate solution that will fit everyone's needs from day one.

Again, baby steps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

But the headphone jack isn't really outdated technology like the other connectors were. It is dated (as in "designed a long time ago by smart people"), but it isn't anymore outdated than buttons, and apple still has 4 of those on the phone.

As this article notes-- https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-just-demonstrated-why-people-hate-the-tech-industry-205324013.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb --The headphone jack's job is to interface with our ears, and our ears haven't changed.

If wireless is the future, why not offer wireless charging? I never use my phone's cable for anything other than charging. If I need to move files/upload pictures/whatever, I do it over wifi.

Pretty bullshit to say "wireless is the future" and then say "here's your pair of wired headphones in the box". Hilarious that those headphones won't even work with any other apple device in existence. Want to watch a movie on your macbook? Better get another pair of headphones, or find your lightning-to-3.5 dongle.

Because as I said above, baby steps. It's a painful transition period and they're doing what they can to accommodate.

How come you are expecting them to have the Perfect Solution from Day 1? Do you lob criticism at Tesla for not having 500 mile range like ICE cars?

Wireless charging is interesting. We know they could do it today through conductive charging like on the watch. But that would require a power mat. I suspect Apple's strategy is to offer truly wireless charging where one can roam several feet in a charging zone.

The rumors and interest they've shown in that space point towards that vision. So in the case of what technology we have today for "wireless charging," it's simply not good enough for what they want to do.
post #2605 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

But the headphone jack isn't really outdated technology like the other connectors were. It is dated (as in "designed a long time ago by smart people"), but it isn't anymore outdated than buttons, and apple still has 4 of those on the phone.

As this article notes-- https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-just-demonstrated-why-people-hate-the-tech-industry-205324013.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=fb --The headphone jack's job is to interface with our ears, and our ears haven't changed.

If wireless is the future, why not offer wireless charging? I never use my phone's cable for anything other than charging. If I need to move files/upload pictures/whatever, I do it over wifi.

Pretty bullshit to say "wireless is the future" and then say "here's your pair of wired headphones in the box". Hilarious that those headphones won't even work with any other apple device in existence. Want to watch a movie on your macbook? Better get another pair of headphones, or find your lightning-to-3.5 dongle.


Bingo on all points. Solid post.
post #2606 of 3195
There is so much I want to say in this thread, but I'll shut up. Adapter included that will work my Shure and Sennheiser headphones. Ordering at the break of midnight. 128 in the non scratchy black.
post #2607 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post

There has to be...I'm not even going to bother finding a source.

The dongle is just a cable--no room for a DAC in there. And the earbuds are just the old earbuds with a new connector...again no room for a DAC.

Ergo, the lightning connector must have analog audio output.

You may be correct, and it may have analog audio, I just haven't seen that confirmed anywhere. There certainly is plenty of room to put a cheap DAC in one of the plugs at either end though. Something like the TI DAC8411 measures 2 x 2.2 x 1 millimeters (yes mm!) and costs 2 bucks so they could stick that anywhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EShRuED83i0
post #2608 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by chobochobo View Post

Guardian UK is quoting that stock went down 0.23% from the beginning of the day to the end of the presentation.

It was down most of the day yesterday. Now currently down 2.5%. Lol these aapl fanbois and their confirmation biases.
post #2609 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred G. Unn View Post

You may be correct, and it may have analog audio, I just haven't seen that confirmed anywhere. There certainly is plenty of room to put a cheap DAC in one of the plugs at either end though. Something like the TI DAC8411 measures 2 x 2.2 x 1 millimeters (yes mm!) and costs 2 bucks so they could stick that anywhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EShRuED83i0

Interesting, you may be right...although wouldn't you need two of them (they are single channel), and wouldn't you need to amplify that signal to headphone levels? So I am still skeptical...
post #2610 of 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonick View Post

It was down most of the day yesterday. Now currently down 2.5%. Lol these aapl fanbois and their confirmation biases.

Instead of name calling me an apple fanboi as a cheap, lazy insult, I'd love hear your arguments instead.

Otherwise, your post is useless.
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