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post #5251 of 5586
Again, what do you mean by "lack of time" if not "hours spent working?" One does not need to grocery shop every day so a weekly bus ride is hardly impossible.

Food education not in your original post.
Peer group not in your original post.
So much here...not in your original post. Just going to through enough shit against the wall hoping some sticks?


Basically you made all the usual apologetics, and now that it's clear they are not the answer, you are going to dodge and weave, move the goal posts, etc.

Just as predicted by me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob in 89 View Post

Well, maybe we could both take that advice. I wasn't trying to argue with you, or dismiss your claims -- I do agree that more time, for whatever reason, should make it easier to eat 'healthy', however you define it. I agree there are better options than junk food at the regular supermarket, and that should make it easier to lose weight, no matter your circumstance, if that's your goal.

I said there are are a number of factors that make healthy eating more difficult for everyone -- including laziness.

Speaking generally, I do think there are a lot of mechanisms in place that make eating healthy less convenient, but not impossible. I just pointed out a few of them. Otherwise, everyone would fit the current beauty standards, be healthy, and look amazing naked.

But no, I don't think one tautological graph showing that people who work fewer hours earn less money paints a complete picture. That would be lazy thinking. There would be so many other factors at play -- are these people riding the bus to the grocery store, but walking across the street to Taco Bell? Are there healthier stores and restaurants in their area, or is that mostly the province of the rich? What kind of food education have they had? What's their peer group like? Are they taking care of kids, or are they kids themselves?

What do I mean by *these people*?
post #5252 of 5586
Writing posts on the internet about being fat shamed can be really time consuming, Pio.
post #5253 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by origenesprit View Post

Writing posts on the internet about being fat shamed can be really time consuming, Pio.

This is a good point. Also, it's hungry work.
post #5254 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Again, what do you mean by "lack of time" if not "hours spent working?" One does not need to grocery shop every day so a weekly bus ride is hardly impossible.

Food education not in your original post.
Peer group not in your original post.
So much here...not in your original post. Just going to through enough shit against the wall hoping some sticks?


Basically you made all the usual apologetics, and now that it's clear they are not the answer, you are going to dodge and weave, move the goal posts, etc.

Just as predicted by me.


Eh, OK. Again, I'm not arguing with you, not trying to be right -- nor was my original post meant to be anything near comprehensive. It is my habit to elaborate, but that's meant to be informative, not combative.

What did I mean by lack of time, if not "hours spent working?". Holy shit, man. I meant a lack of time. For whatever reason. I'll let you fill in the blanks on that one, maybe with some examples from your own life. I fear that if I list my own, you'd just see it as a dodge, or worse, *not something I've mentioned before*.

But I feel we're going in circles. I listed a few common, but non-comprehensive things that could make healthy eating more difficult, troublesome, problematic, burdensome, a nuisance, whatever. If you feel some, but not all, don't apply to everyone, 100% of the time, then we don't disagree.

If you just want to be right, I can give you that. You're right. Well played?
post #5255 of 5586
If you didn't want to argue why did you keep disagreeing? Serious question.

As I've said I've just had this same conversation too many times. Cabbage, beans, rice, legumes...all really cheap and easy to get. Except for cabbage they all have long shelf lives without refrigeration even.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob in 89 View Post

Eh, OK. Again, I'm not arguing with you, not trying to be right -- nor was my original post meant to be anything near comprehensive. It is my habit to elaborate, but that's meant to be informative, not combative.

What did I mean by lack of time, if not "hours spent working?". Holy shit, man. I meant a lack of time. For whatever reason. I'll let you fill in the blanks on that one, maybe with some examples from your own life. I fear that if I list my own, you'd just see it as a dodge, or worse, *not something I've mentioned before*.

But I feel we're going in circles. I listed a few common, but non-comprehensive things that could make healthy eating more difficult, troublesome, problematic, burdensome, a nuisance, whatever. If you feel some, but not all, don't apply to everyone, 100% of the time, then we don't disagree.

If you just want to be right, I can give you that. You're right. Well played?
post #5256 of 5586
I was just trying to elaborate. I don't have a major stake in the laziness vs. sometimes it's really hard to eat right all the time game.

Working with obese kids (in a capacity unrelated to their obesity) I am interested in changing some factors that would help them live longer than fifty, but it's a lot harder than telling them not to be lazy. In my subjective experience, a lot of things do come into play, so it's difficult. (And depressing).
post #5257 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob in 89 View Post

I was just trying to elaborate. I don't have a major stake in the laziness vs. sometimes it's really hard to eat right all the time game.

Working with obese kids (in a capacity unrelated to their obesity) I am interested in changing some factors that would help them live longer than fifty, but it's a lot harder than telling them not to be lazy. In my subjective experience, a lot of things do come into play, so it's difficult.

I never even addressed laziness so am not understanding this sudden focus on it.
post #5258 of 5586
I guess I filled in the blanks on that one. If it's not time, money, inconvenience, etc. stopping everyone from eating right if they want to, wouldn't it be laziness?
post #5259 of 5586
It could be a number of things, laziness included, but the important thing is to rule out structural issues...which I have done. At that point, which is something I said many posts ago, it is clearly seen the locus is internal. Once we are at this point the actual problems can be addressed. This is important as hundreds of millions of tax dollars are being spent on concepts like "food deserts" and the research by NBER actually demonstrates access is not the issue. We need to put to bed the external, structural excuses and place the issue with the individual and at that point society can help. Again, back to what I said many posts ago, the misguided people are moving attention away from the actual problem and facilitating the self harm by others.
post #5260 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

YMMV may vary, but my anecdotal experience is that over time deliberate eating choices effect your appetites. I can definitely still enjoy the occasional bit of junk food, but a lot of super-processed crap that I used to love genuinely disgusts me. Even stuff that still appeals to me isn't stuff I go around craving -- it's more like I'm at a party and "of fuck year, I haven't had Oreos in like two years". Having been in a couple of long-term relationships with vegetarian/pescatarian gals, along with some health considerations, have gotten me comfortable with an absence of meat being a pretty normal mealtime thing. I still eat some sort of warmed up animal flesh at least a few times a week, but don't think twice about going several days without it. There was a time that would have been unthinkable.

I gorge on that processed shit when it's presented to me at parties or whatever, but I have absolutely no desire to seek it out in my normal life. I could happily go the rest of my life without having a grocery store cookie, for example. I honestly don't even enjoy it, but apparently the craving/self-control centers of my brain don't agree when it's sitting in front of me. Damn food scientists are too good at their jobs.



My current snack is some salami, cornichons, and castelvetrano olives. And an espresso. Mmmmm. I'm way more satisfied with this than shame-eating a whole bag of chips.
post #5261 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

We need to put to bed the external, structural excuses and place the issue with the individual and at that point society can help. Again, back to what I said many posts ago, the misguided people are moving attention away from the actual problem and facilitating the self harm by others.

The individual is certainly a large part of it, but America as a whole has developed a pretty damn unhealthy food culture. The individual has to work hard to escape that.

We utterly bombard our kids with this message that shitty food = happiness. Go to an elementary school and see how many occasions result in bringing a huge platter of cupcakes and chips (and the "healthy" choice, juice!) for the whole class. Shit is constant. It's a royal pain fighting it.



It's interesting to me how rampant obesity is in the Hispanic community. Mexico is now fatter than the US. Did that develop indigenously, or did America influence it with the flow of migrants back and forth? Interesting questions.
post #5262 of 5586
Agree with all that but this is a completely different level from, "Poor people can't afford to eat healthy." That's like our talk of Repubs just saying, "Culture!" and throwing up their hands in regards to other issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

The individual is certainly a large part of it, but America as a whole has developed a pretty damn unhealthy food culture. The individual has to work hard to escape that.

We utterly bombard our kids with this message that shitty food = happiness. Go to an elementary school and see how many occasions result in bringing a huge platter of cupcakes and chips (and the "healthy" choice, juice!) for the whole class. Shit is constant. It's a royal pain fighting it.



It's interesting to me how rampant obesity is in the Hispanic community. Mexico is now fatter than the US. Did that develop indigenously, or did America influence it with the flow of migrants back and forth? Interesting questions.
post #5263 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Agree with all that but this is a completely different level from, "Poor people can't afford to eat healthy." That's like our talk of Repubs just saying, "Culture!" and throwing up their hands in regards to other issues.

One of the upsides to having money is that you can live in a yuppie neighborhood full of overly concerned hyperparents who insist on apple slices and organic tofu at school instead of cupcakes.

Also god forbid anyone bring in peanuts, apparently.




I wonder if part of the issue with poor people is that they're more likely to use food as a coping mechanism. That's the pat explanation for why smoking rates are so much higher among the poors. Life sucks if you're poor, so you seek cheap vices. You can certainly eat healthy for cheap, but rice and beans isn't going to pop off that dopamine response the way a processed fast food meal will.
post #5264 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

One of the upsides to having money is that you can live in a yuppie neighborhood full of overly concerned hyperparents who insist on apple slices and organic tofu at school instead of cupcakes.

Also god forbid anyone bring in peanuts, apparently.
Like, say, Los Feliz.

https://twitter.com/LosFelizDaycare?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
post #5265 of 5586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

It's interesting to me how rampant obesity is in the Hispanic community. Mexico is now fatter than the US. Did that develop indigenously, or did America influence it with the flow of migrants back and forth? Interesting questions.

 

It is interesting because there is a very strong correlation between GDP/capita and obesity.  As food takes up a smaller portion of one's budget, people tend to eat more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post


I gorge on that processed shit when it's presented to me at parties or whatever, but I have absolutely no desire to seek it out in my normal life. I could happily go the rest of my life without having a grocery store cookie, for example. I honestly don't even enjoy it, but apparently the craving/self-control centers of my brain don't agree when it's sitting in front of me. Damn food scientists are too good at their jobs.



My current snack is some salami, cornichons, and castelvetrano olives. And an espresso. Mmmmm. I'm way more satisfied with this than shame-eating a whole bag of chips.


I don't have that urge at all actually.  If I don't like the shitty snack food, it doesn't appeal to me.  I also enjoy potato chips, but I have actually found that if I rotate flavors for a snack, I don't eat as much, but I also rotate to other snack foods.  I'm not diabetic, but I don't crave sweet food almost ever (23andme actually predicted this), and thoughts/smells of sweet food early in the morning make me feel sick.

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