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post #2611 of 5616
I'm not finding any data to support or deny ethan's claim that charter schools can just drop kids willy nilly other than opinion articles.

Quite honestly though, I think allowing students to drop out/not forcing them to go to school would have positive effects. In my high school, there were always kids that didn't want to be there and caused problems. They would go enough that they didn't get truancy fines. When they were there, all they did was cause problems. How does that benefit anyone?
post #2612 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

This is 100% false. Charter schools are a solution only for a very small percentage of students. Go look at any state website and sort their data for dropout rates. Charter schools kick any student out who shows any indication that they will fail or be a problem. 

But that just isn't true. For example:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/03/17/study-charter-high-schools-have-7-11-higher-graduation-rates-than-their-public-school-peers/
Quote:
On this measure, charter schools in Florida and Chicago are producing impressive results. According to the study, students enrolled in a charter public high school are 7 to 11 percentage points more likely to graduate compared to their peers in district-run schools.
post #2613 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

It's talking about families with two educators then?

My recollection is that the millionaire households were sorted by the principal wage earner and educator was the big winner. It was suggested that many millionaire educator households had two working adults and that many of them were both educators. That's how I remember it, anyway.
Quote:
You did say "get rid of public schools" originally.

Some of our libertarian buddies would love to just remove universal education altogether, so it's not like that reading is off the table.

If it was part of some comprehensive reform of the role of government, then yeah. But I don't have a detailed plan for a libertarian utopia since that doesn't seem like it'd be a constructive use of my time.
post #2614 of 5616


Yeah, that shit is a fucking smokescreen because they kick the problem kids out. This is a well known practice.

 

http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/gradrates.aspx  Click on % Dropped Out to sort and look what kinds of schools occupy the top. 

 

Charter schools are bullshit, financially infeasible, and the teachers burn out extremely quickly. 

post #2615 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post


Yeah, that shit is a fucking smokescreen because they kick the problem kids out. This is a well known practice.

http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/gradrates.aspx  Click on % Dropped Out to sort and look what kinds of schools occupy the top. 

Charter schools are bullshit, insolvent, and the teachers burn out extremely quickly. 

Yeah, I looked at it. The outliers with really low graduation rates are indeed charter schools. Like this one:

"The Lowell Middlesex Academy Charter School (LMACS) is a public high school that targets at-risk adolescents who have officially dropped out of high school"

That doesn't exactly support your claims.
post #2616 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

When/where I grew up there was no bones about the fact kids were "tracked." As for the "bad" students we had an entire secondary school dedicated to these kids. It was a "tech school" which meant the girls learned how to be hair dressers, secretaries, and good wives and the boys learned carpentry, machine shop, and similar skills.

In my high school there were three course prefixes. There were the 300 kids that were expected to drop out in Grade 11, the 400 that were expected to finish grade 12 and either go to work or the local community college (that was an actual tech/trade school vs. what CCs are in the US now, i.e. extended high school), and then the 500 that were expected to complete grade 13 and go on to university.

There's also the distinction between "bad" students and developmentally disabled kids. It seems absurd to me to put severely autistic kids (for example) in normal public schools. They drain resources and are a severe disruption for teachers and the other students. I get that parents don't want to give up on their kids, but we need to be realistic about what they can really accomplish. In the old days, those kids would get locked in a special ed classroom and basically shuttled along for 12 years until they "graduated." In the older days, they'd just end up in an asylum. We're in this weird position now where we just pretend they're sort of normal, while overloading parents and the normal schools.


My school did tracking, but it was just normal/"college prep" (ie, what should have been the basic level), and gifted. You took essentially an IQ test in elementary school and then had a couple other chances to get in or out. It seemed to work out well, the Gifted and Talented kids did really well and weren't a disproportionate drain on resources. The normal level students often took a lot more vocational classes, although not as focused as what you describe I don't believe.

AP classes (and high school rankings) plus NCLB have really fucked that system up. Schools have a huge incentive to stuff as many kids as possible into AP classes, including those who have little demonstrated ability to handle the material. So they dumb down the class, still call it AP, then nobody takes (or passes, anyway) the test. NCLB mandates that everybody pass the same tests, and there are plenty of people who really won't need algebra in their real life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

I'm not finding any data to support or deny ethan's claim that charter schools can just drop kids willy nilly other than opinion articles.

Quite honestly though, I think allowing students to drop out/not forcing them to go to school would have positive effects. In my high school, there were always kids that didn't want to be there and caused problems. They would go enough that they didn't get truancy fines. When they were there, all they did was cause problems. How does that benefit anyone?

Kids are pretty much biologically incapable of correctly weighting long term consequences, so it shouldn't be trivial to let them permanently alter their life by dropping out of high school. People without a high school education are basically guaranteed a slot in the underclass. I don't know how many "troubled" kids end up accomplishing anything, but I'd assume it's greater than zero.

What would be an interesting consideration is a German-style vocational track. At least if you opt-in to that, you're still learning something that can help you make a living.
post #2617 of 5616

What do you think a charter school is you fucking idiot? 

 

Goddamnit. They aren't some magical place that have discovered the secret to education. They take kids who will toe the line and kick the rest out. They overwork their teachers to the point where only a very small percentage return. They use public money while discriminating and in some cases doing so in public buildings. They are bullshit but the necons love them because they treat the minorities and poor like shit. 

post #2618 of 5616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

You can't just abandon the most high-risk students. How would that turn out better for society? Who catches them if not the state? 

Drug overdose. I don't fucking care. Not my fucking problem.
Quote:
Some of our libertarian buddies would love to just remove universal education altogether, so it's not like that reading is off the table.

I'm probably the only one on this board advocating complete abolition of public education. Ataturk loves the state, so there's no way he'd decimate it completely.
post #2619 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

What do you think a charter school is you fucking idiot? 

Goddamnit. They aren't some magical place that have discovered the secret to education. They take kids who will toe the line and kick the rest out. They overwork their teachers to the point where only a very small percentage return. They use public money while discriminating and in some cases even public buildings. 

They mostly improve results (to the extent that they do) by skimming all the bad students out before they ever get enrolled.



On the subject of charter schools, I'm not a big fan of all the specialty magnet schools. It seems ridiculous to have high school students picking majors, essentially. Arts high schools, drama high schools, STEM (of course) high schools. We even have a STEM middle school around here. Part of the whole point of compulsory public education is developing functional citizens, not just cogs to plug into the demands of industry ("get good jobs"). Even on the "good jobs" front, letting a dumbfuck 13 year old decide to focus on theater or whatever seems like a great way to put them on a rather permanent trajectory before they have any idea what the consequences are.
post #2620 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post


They mostly improve results (to the extent that they do) by skimming all the bad students out before they ever get enrolled.

 

This is also true. The post was replying to our Kemalist friend though I wasn't calling you a fucking idiot. 

post #2621 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

There's also the distinction between "bad" students and developmentally disabled kids. It seems absurd to me to put severely autistic kids (for example) in normal public schools. They drain resources and are a severe disruption for teachers and the other students. I get that parents don't want to give up on their kids, but we need to be realistic about what they can really accomplish. In the old days, those kids would get locked in a special ed classroom and basically shuttled along for 12 years until they "graduated." In the older days, they'd just end up in an asylum. We're in this weird position now where we just pretend they're sort of normal, while overloading parents and the normal schools.


My school did tracking, but it was just normal/"college prep" (ie, what should have been the basic level), and gifted. You took essentially an IQ test in elementary school and then had a couple other chances to get in or out. It seemed to work out well, the Gifted and Talented kids did really well and weren't a disproportionate drain on resources. The normal level students often took a lot more vocational classes, although not as focused as what you describe I don't believe.

AP classes (and high school rankings) plus NCLB have really fucked that system up. Schools have a huge incentive to stuff as many kids as possible into AP classes, including those who have little demonstrated ability to handle the material. So they dumb down the class, still call it AP, then nobody takes (or passes, anyway) the test. NCLB mandates that everybody pass the same tests, and there are plenty of people who really won't need algebra in their real life.
Kids are pretty much biologically incapable of correctly weighting long term consequences, so it shouldn't be trivial to let them permanently alter their life by dropping out of high school. People without a high school education are basically guaranteed a slot in the underclass. I don't know how many "troubled" kids end up accomplishing anything, but I'd assume it's greater than zero.

What would be an interesting consideration is a German-style vocational track. At least if you opt-in to that, you're still learning something that can help you make a living.

It should be up to the parents to force them to go, not the state. You're also discounting the problems they cause throughout the school though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

What do you think a charter school is you fucking idiot? 

Goddamnit. They aren't some magical place that have discovered the secret to education. They take kids who will toe the line and kick the rest out. They overwork their teachers to the point where only a very small percentage return. They use public money while discriminating and in some cases doing so in public buildings. They are bullshit but the necons love them because they treat the minorities and poor like shit. 

I don't have any experience with charter schools, but I can say that my private school teachers worked comparable or more hours than my public school teachers. They also got paid less and didn't get the awesome retirement plans. As far as I know they didn't burn out - many of them had been there 10+ years before me, and many were still there 10 years after I left.
post #2622 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

What do you think a charter school is you fucking idiot? 

Goddamnit. They aren't some magical place that have discovered the secret to education. They take kids who will toe the line and kick the rest out. They overwork their teachers to the point where only a very small percentage return. They use public money while discriminating and in some cases doing so in public buildings. They are bullshit but the necons love them because they treat the minorities and poor like shit. 

Every single one of those low-graduation-rate charter schools you cited that I checked is specifically intended for high-risk students or kids who had already dropped out of the regular schools. The only evidence you've offered so far contradicts your claims.
post #2623 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post


I don't have any experience with charter schools, but I can say that my private school teachers worked comparable or more hours than my public school teachers. They also got paid less and didn't get the awesome retirement plans. As far as I know they didn't burn out - many of them had been there 10+ years before me, and many were still there 10 years after I left.

 

Charter school teachers are worked like dogs and paid very well. A lot of kids just out of school will opt for a charter school in the same way a lawyer will go for big law or a business major will go into ibanking. Suffer for a bit but make a decent amount of money at a young age. 

post #2624 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

You can't just abandon the most high-risk students. How would that turn out better for society? Who catches them if not the state? 

I'm not a misanthrope like Harold, so yeah, I'm not advocating that we toss them out on the street or whatever. But the current system is A) hurting everybody else B) failing those kids. Conventional schools just don't have the resources to deal with all the "bad" (of every variety) student. Some of these kids would have been in asylums not so long ago, and we're trying to get them to take standardized tests. It's lunacy.

I don't know where the solution lies there. The "alternative school" approach gets them out of gen-pop, but basically condemns them to a second-class education.
post #2625 of 5616
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

It should be up to the parents to force them to go, not the state. You're also discounting the problems they cause throughout the school though.
Oh, I'm not discounting that at all (read some of my other posts on this page), it's a very real concern. But I'm more than a little hesitant to let them pull the plug. Most of the ones we're talking about have shitty parents in the first place, or they wouldn't be in that situation. Getting dragged through school is one of the only ways they'd ever learn enough to escape that pattern.
Quote:
I don't have any experience with charter schools, but I can say that my private school teachers worked comparable or more hours than my public school teachers. They also got paid less and didn't get the awesome retirement plans. As far as I know they didn't burn out - many of them had been there 10+ years before me, and many were still there 10 years after I left.

Private school burnout is lessened because the teachers aren't expected to be social workers. They can actually teach.

Also a lot less pressure to drag every kid through standardized testing.
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