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Bentivegna construction - Page 2

post #16 of 21
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Also, is there a way to differentiate between Norvegese and Norwegian constructions via a visual/tactile inspection? Or is the only method ripping the shoe apart?
I imagine that you could tell by seeing and feeling the top of the insole along the edges of the inside of the shoe. Since, according to the diagram, the Norwegian construction uses a feather skived into the insole, you should be able to see and feel the dimpling caused by the stitch pulling against the feather. Based on the diagrams, I believe the inside of a Norwegian shoe would look similar to the inside of a Hand-sewn Welted shoe. In the case of the Norvegese, I'm not sure what effect, if any, appears by having the stitch horizontally sewn into the side of the insole. Assuming that the insole doesn't dimple the way that a Norwegian does, we should be able to discern the difference between the two constructions. Unfortunately, I've never (knowingly) seen a Norvegese constructed shoe, so I'm not sure what to look for on the insole. Does anyone else know what to look for?
post #17 of 21
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I imagine that you could tell by seeing and feeling the top of the insole along the edges of the inside of the shoe. Since, according to the diagram, the Norwegian construction uses a feather skived into the insole, you should be able to see and feel the dimpling caused by the stitch pulling against the feather.  Based on the diagrams, I believe the inside of a Norwegian shoe would look similar to the inside of a Hand-sewn Welted shoe. In the case of the Norvegese, I'm not sure what effect, if any, appears by having the stitch horizontally sewn into the side of the insole.  Assuming that the insole doesn't dimple the way that a Norwegian does, we should be able to discern the difference between the two constructions.  Unfortunately, I've never (knowingly) seen a Norvegese constructed shoe, so I'm not sure what to look for on the insole.  Does anyone else know what to look for?
Hi. There isn't much difference between Norvegese and Norwegian and the difference is how to make a feather, I think. Also, there isn't much difference between Norwegian-welted and Reverse-welted. There is no international standard terminology on shoe construction, right? I guess that book has only distinguished so. Weston is offering Norvegese/Norwegian shoes. You can see here. http://www.jmweston.com/ Pleaese go "Production" and you'll find the toe of "Chasse 677(Hunt Derby)" I heard from a salesperson that 677 is hand-lasted, hand-welted and machine-sewn-outsole. Even if shoes are hand-welted, it is possible that we cannot see the dimpling marks on the insole. Whether we can see them or not depends on the thickness of the insole and on the depth of the sewing, I heard from the cobbler who can make shoes. I couldn't see the dimpling marks as for 677.
post #18 of 21
What I found interesting/confusing about the Norvegese diagram is that there is no feather. It appears that the stitch is sewn directly into the side of the insole. This strikes me as a pretty difficult operation and would require a thick insole. I believe the reason you see no dimpling with Weston shoes is that they (uniquely, as far as I know) use a cut-and-turned feather, whereas every other maker (who doesn't use a glued-on feather) uses a hand-skived feather (as shown in the Vass book). Weston uses a machine that carves a 1/4" slice of leather near the edge of the insole and turns this feather 90 degrees so that it's perpendicular to the bottom of the insole. The cut-and-turned process creates a weak feather so Weston then reinforces the feather by glueing a strip of linen on it. The final result with a cut-and-turned feather is that, similar to a glued-on feather, the welt stitch places less stress on any specific section of the main body of the insole, and thus there is no dimpling.
post #19 of 21
Here is a rough translation of Cherrytree's page.... 3. Norwegian Style The greatest characteristic of this style is that you can see the stitching of the seam on the upper surface. However, in many this is merely decoration and serves no structural function.  This shoe finds its origins in Norway, but depending on the maker, the manufacturing process can vary significantly.  In Europe, for example, in France, shoes with the seam stitching mentioned above are today called "Norwegians." G. Norwegian Construction First a feather is cut away from the bottom portion of the insole. With this feather, the upper lining is parallel-stitched together with the insole. Then, the upper edge that faces outward is stitched to the outsole on the lip edge. The Norwegian construction combines both minmal side to side give and flexibility, and has long been used in mountain climbing shoes and the like.  Famous as the construction used in J.M. Weston's De Gaul. H. Norwegian Welted Construction An "L" shaped curved welt is placed on top of the small lip edge used in the Norwegian Construction, and a parallel stitch is made to the outside of the shoe.  (There are also cases in which the stitches do not extend outside of the upper as is shown in the picture). In other words, this is a construction in which the welt and stitches in the (A) shoe are entirely exposed on the outer portion of the shoe.  Because the welt does not penetrate into the inner portion of the shoe, water resistance is greater than in the Norwegian Construction (G). Today, this construction is only seen in special order mountain climbing shoes and the like I.  Reverse Welted Construction The point of difference between this model and the Norwegian Welted Construction (H) is that rather than creating the feather, cloth sewing tape is affixed.  In other words, the welt and stitches from (B) are entirely exposed on the outside the shoe.  Actually, many shoes that called Norwegian Welted Construction (H) are made in this manner. The waterproofing properties are extremely great, as is the case with Norwegian Welted Construction (H). This process is often used in country shoes. J.\tNorvegese Construction The difference with Norwegian Welted Construction (G) is that instead of creating the feather in bottom portion of the insole, a line of stitches rises up along the insole at the point where that surface and the upper lining are directly stitched together.  It is said that Mr. Stephano Brancini(?), an Italian, has recently devised ways to simplify Norwegian Construction (G) and Norwegian Welted Construction (H).  When a welt that has an L-shaped surface is placed on top of the lip edge and parallel stitched together so that the stitching may be seen on the outside of the shoe, it is sometimes called the Bentivegna Construction.
post #20 of 21
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This strikes me as a pretty difficult operation
It is difficult to express in words, but this is a simplified feather compared with the hand-skived feather as shown in the Vass book. This insole has only a slit/notch made with a knife.
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Weston uses a machine that carves a 1/4" slice of leather near the edge of the insole and turns this feather 90 degrees so that it's perpendicular to the bottom of the insole. The cut-and-turned process creates a weak feather so Weston then reinforces the feather by glueing a strip of linen on it.
This insole(feather) is used for almost machine-made shoes. Weston is offering 3 kinds of ready-made shoes; almost machine-made, half-hand-half-machine made and almost hand-made. Only 677 is the ready-made shoes which are almost hand-made as far as I know, and the price is the most expensive. I have never taken 677 apart, so I don't know the shape of 677's feather(as I said, there are some methods for making a feather.), but they have a hand-skived feather, as shown in Weston's catalog. PS I wrote "677 is hand-lasted, hand-welted and machine-sewn-outsole.", but 677 has no welt, so this is not the strictly right expression.
post #21 of 21
'Bentivegna' is another way of running the stitch thru the welt that is supposed to ensure 'waterproofness'. As I understand it, the stitch is wrapped in it's perimeter in addition to the typical stitch pattern. I can't really picture it, but this is what the Santoni guy told me today when he visited the shop. Actually, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders and said it was just another 'Italian stitch deal...you know how they make a big deal out of little things'. I am inclined to agree.
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