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Bentivegna construction

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
T4Phage's recent comment to marc37 regarding Santoni's varying levels of quality brought this up again in my mind. Some Italian manufacturers (notably Santoni and Lattanzi) boast that some of their shoes are made with Bentivegna construction. Here's what the Santoni website has to say about it:
Quote:
Every single centimeter of leather is tacked and sewn by hand on the last, together with a single welt. The welt is made rigorously by hand bordered asymmetrically along the profile of the insole lining. The result is a shoe that transcends time.
Well, that sounds a lot like a regular old hand-welted shoe to me. Is it?
post #2 of 21
Even the rep had a hard time explaining it to me. I am still a bit lost. However, a shoemaker/repair person told me that it was similar to a German construction, something to do with double stitching of the welt. Maybe Bengal-Stripe may be of more help. btw. when do you get the Perry boots? You're getting the chukkas right?
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
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Even the rep had a hard time explaining it to me. I am still a bit lost.
Sometimes I think that I'm going to have to become a cordwainer to figure out all the things that I want to figure out about shoe construction.
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btw. when do you get the Perry boots? You're getting the chukkas right?
I was told 4 months at the beginning of June, so perhaps by the beginning of October. They're model 631, so they're Chelseas, not chukkas.
post #4 of 21
No, I haven't worked out yet what Bentivegna construction is (something flashy, that's for sure). I believe, and that's only a guess, that Bentivegna is a row of stitching from the outside to combine upper and welt. (In normal Goodyear that stitching is underneath the shoe and out of sight.) In that Branchini shoe t4phage has posted, the upper row would be Bentivegna, while the row below is Norwegian. (See how the upper is turned out and then stitched onto the welt.) If I'm right, then Bentivegna is a construction method where upper and welt are stitched from the outside right at the join, where in Goodyear is normally a ditch. Berluti offers on their web-site shoes in Goodyear, Blake and Norwegian construction (we all know those) but also in Africa and Ferrarese construction. I have no idea about these construction methods.
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Sometimes I think that I'm going to have to become a cordwainer to figure out all the things that I want to figure out about shoe construction.
They offer all kind of residential courses "Learn cooking in Tuscany", maybe some enterprising Italian cobbler can put on a summer school "Make your own shoes in Tuscany".
post #5 of 21
Here's a pictorial description of Norvegese, aka Bentivegna, construction from the Japanese shoe magazine Last. There is no welt and the upper and lining are stitched directly into the side of the insole. The magazine also shows "Norwegian construction," which is exactly the same as Bentivegna, except that in the case of Norwegian, the insole and lining are stitched into a feather/holdfast of the insole. The magazine also makes a distinction between "Norwegian construction" and "Norwegian welted construction. Bentivegna
post #6 of 21
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post #7 of 21
Thing is, when it comes to Santoni shoes at least, Norvegese and Bentivegna are different constructions. And the pic of the "Norvegese" construction does not match Santoni's Bentivegna - the Bentivegna is done with an external welt strip. I think it is done without a feather though. Also, there is something different about the Bentivegna - the external welt strip changes directions just behind the ball of the foot. What I mean is that around the forefoot, the welt is curved outward and stitched down to the sole directly, like a Norwegian, but in the rear of the shoe it is either trimmed or it curves down underneath the sole. I'm not quite sure how it works. While visiting the Santoni store in New York I had occasion to examine a half-made Bentivegna shoe and some company literature that is not generally available. I still couldn't figure it out...
post #8 of 21
AHarris - I hope to someday know one tenth of the information you share so freely. Warmest regards, Tom
post #9 of 21
Andy, the truth is out there. I'm thinking that with the resources we have: you, shoefan, t4phage, jcusey, bengal-stripe, we must be able to figure this out. Perhaps a Style Forum member who speaks Japanese can translate the text that goes with the picture, and that may provide further illumination. Does the pictorial of the Norvegese/Bentivegna match that of Santoni's Norvegese models?
post #10 of 21
Quote:
Thing is, when it comes to Santoni shoes at least, Norvegese and Bentivegna are different constructions. And the pic of the "Norvegese" construction does not match Santoni's Bentivegna - the Bentivegna is done with an external welt strip. I think it is done without a feather though. Also, there is something different about the Bentivegna - the external welt strip changes directions just behind the ball of the foot. What I mean is that around the forefoot, the welt is curved outward and stitched down to the sole directly, like a Norwegian, but in the rear of the shoe it is either trimmed or it curves down underneath the sole. I'm not quite sure how it works. While visiting the Santoni store in New York I had occasion to examine a half-made Bentivegna shoe and some company literature that is not generally available. I still couldn't figure it out...
I agree with A.Harris concerning the "bentivegna" construction. The ones on my Santoni and Lattanzi is as he describes.
post #11 of 21
Based on Cherrytree's link, has anyone figured out the difference between the Norwegian welted and Reverse welted constructions? Also, is there a way to differentiate between Norvegese and Norwegian constructions via a visual/tactile inspection? Or is the only method ripping the shoe apart?
post #12 of 21
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Based on Cherrytree's link, has anyone figured out the difference between the Norwegian welted and Reverse welted constructions?
That's how I understand it (no guaranties given): Norwegian construction is similar to Veldtschoen, the lining gets turned inside and is stitched to the welt, the upper is turned outside and stitched to the protruding sole. While in English Veldtschoen upper and sole edge are cut flush, the Italians like the upper to be recessed by a few mm from the sole edge and to introduce an extra step. Norwegian welt is a storm welt, which is stitched to the outside of the shoe (rather like a sandbag in front of your door to prevent flooding). A split reverse welt is a storm welt (slightly thicker than normal), which is cut halfway trough horizontally. The upper part is folded up (to form the sand bag) while the lower part is stitched underneath the shoe like a normal welt. Both storm welts are stitched on the outer edge through the sole. Yes, Bentigvegna is still robbing me of sleep.
post #13 of 21
Here are links to 12 shoe construction types listed in the Japanese magazine Last. If only I could read Japanese. It seems to be a better magazine than Trepointes. Goodyears Blake and related Reverse welts and related Stitch-down and Veldtschoen
post #14 of 21
Hello.
Quote:
the difference between the Norwegian welted and Reverse welted constructions
As for Norwegian welted, a feather is made with a knife and welting is hand-sewn. As for Reverse welted, a feather is bonded to a insole and welting is machine-sewn.
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is there a way to differentiate between Norvegese and Norwegian constructions via a visual/tactile inspection? Or is the only method ripping the shoe apart?
I suppose so.
post #15 of 21
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As for Norwegian welted, a feather is made with a knife and welting is hand-sewn. As for Reverse welted, a feather is bonded to a insole and welting is machine-sewn.
I concur. It took staring at the pic for a while to see the line indicating that the feather was bonded on the "reverse welted" picture. It should be said that not all manufacturers are going to abide by this terminology. Vass for instance calls their shoes "reverse welted" though the feather is cut into the insole by hand. Also, these diagrams leave out one component - as often as not there is a third row of stitching going through the the midsole, not to mentioned the braided stitch used on some Norwegians. Still wrapping my mind around the veldtschoen...
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