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Frederick Scholte (Savile Row) - Page 2

post #16 of 131
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

It's interesting that this version has a black vest. A white vest is usually worn with tails.


Good call -- I was puzzled by that too, especially since the Duke wore a white vest in the photographs I've seen of him in a tailcoat.



post #17 of 131
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post

I was at the V&A museum this morning for an appointment booked over two months ago. I was mainly interested in "study" an early " Hawes & Curtis" backless waistcoat and related bow ties , but as you could view up to 8 items, I also asked to view the Only suit they have from the Duke http://www.vam.ac.uk/users/node/5680 most probably by Scholte. This must be the same suit mentioned in the OP, however I doubt they actually opened it as you are not even allowed to touch any item but a senior supervisor is with you at all the time and able to handle, measure and for me even trace on tracing papers what is possible. The suit did not have any front dart as common for Scholte, but only a short under harm dart and the side dart that connect with the back panel. Unfortunately I cannot share the pictures taken as they made me sign an agreement not to do so. Interestingly the suit had a label inside from Trimingham, London-Bermuda, apparently a retailer, but I suspect the tweed fabric was from them, rather then the finished suit. Edit: the actual V&A museum catalog has the suit maker being Trimingham, but having looked at the details, it was definitely a bespoke garment, made following a Scholte template at the bare minimum.


What an extraordinary experience.  How were the measurements on the jacket?  The Duke remarked that one of the keys to Scholte's tailoring was the "the perfect balance of proportions between shoulders and waist in the cut of a coat."  How was the level of handwork, compared to bespoke of today?


Hawes and Curtis was the Duke's shirt-maker and haberdasher.  It's very different now, without the bespoke offerings, but in the 1920s and 30s it was regarded above Turnbull and Asser.  I'll have to post a review of various London tailors and shirtmakers from a book published in 1930 when I have the chance.

Edited by CrimsonSox - 11/12/13 at 12:44am
post #18 of 131
It was the second suit I have seen in person of the Duke. I guess it was an equivalent of a 34 UK or smaller. I was there primarily to take a pattern of the evening waistcoat (with fix yoke rather then the rental adjustable) and a one ended bow tie. I have only really took the width of lapel measure which was surprisingly the same that the ones my tailor cut for me ~11cm. It was a visible shaped jacket but did not have a massive drop or a lot of chest build up.
post #19 of 131
Originally Posted by CrimsonSox View Post

I'll have to post a review of various London tailors and shirtmakers from a book published in 1930 when I have the chance.

Please do -- that would be very interesting.

post #20 of 131
Thread Starter 

London is a Man's Town by Helen Josephy and Mary Margaret McBride was published in 1930 as a guide to shops in the city.  It's one of those secret treasures in Widener Library -- it's been borrowed only three times before, in 1999, 1965, and 1956.  The section on tailors is quite interesting:


F.P. Scholte, 7 Savile Row, dresses South Americans, actors and other dashing dandies.  Gordon Selfridge goes here, we understand, and many other wealthy Americans.
Scholte has created a style of his own -- one with a very full chest, broad shoulders and narrow hips. He never tried to sell a man a suit of clothes in his life, and if an employee tries to do so, he gets the sack at once.  You step in, supposedly needing a certain suit or suits, see materials, decide on a suit, pay for it when it is finished and that's the end of it.  You could go there for fifteen years and he would never ask you if you wouldn't like another suit in addition to the one you've just ordered.
Another tailor who holds royal warrants to the King and Prince of Wales as well as the late King Edward is Davies and Son, 19 and 20 Hanover Street.  This firm was established in 1804 by the late Thomas Davies.
Anderson and Sheppard, 30 Savile Row, are especially good for young men and all dress clothes, as are Kilgour and French, Ltd., 33A Dover Street, W.I.  The former has made clothes for the Prince of Wales.  Customers have a different cutter for coat and trousers.
Gieves, Ltd., Royal Naval Outfitters, 21 Old Bond Street, with a back door opening on the Burlington Arcade, made uniforms for officers who fought against America in the War of 1812. Customers' names recall stirring actions at sea.  The gallant Captain Broke of Shannon and Chesapeake fame, and such great naval heroes as Rodney, Howe, Collingwood, Barham and Hood were on the books.  The firm had the honor of providing the outfit of King George V when he first joined the Royal Navy and so holds a personal royal warrant to the King, also one to the Prince of Wales.
A naval commander told us that if a British naval officer in China or Chile suddenly needed a dress uniform or a warm overcoat he could cable Gieves who has his measurements and in no time at all the uniform would arrive, a perfect fit.  Gieves sells all kinds of civilian clothes and outfittings, too.
Hawkes and Company, Ltd., 1 Savile Row, are military tailors.
If you fancy a tailor with a romantic address there are two in particular --- Carr, Son and Woor, Ltd., 14 Savile Row, where the playwright Sheridan once lived; and Harrison and Martin, LTd., 17 South Molton Street, where William Blake, the poet and painter, lived.
The great authorities on overcoats in London are Simpson and London, 79 Grosvenor Street, W.I.
For riding breeches, Tautz and Company, 12 Grafton Street, is excellent; and H. Huntsman and Sons, 11 Savile Row, furnishes good hunting clothes.
For beautiful evening clothes, Johns and Bonham, Ltd., 38 Albemarle Street, is popular with smart men-about-town.


In the review, the King is George V, the Prince of Wales is the future Duke of Windsor, and the Duke of York is the future George VI, who was the subject of The King's Speech.

Edited by CrimsonSox - 11/15/13 at 2:53am
post #21 of 131
Thread Starter 

London is a Man's Town (1930) on shirtmakers.  Mr. Curtis refers to F.P. Curtis, the co-founder of Hawes and Curtis, and the author of one the original books on men's style, Clothes and the Man (which shares the same title as Alan Flusser's first book).  Note Curtis' advice on evening dress:


The Prince of Wales gets all his dress shirts from Hawes and Curtis, 53 Jermyn Street and the Piccadilly Arcade, and buys his hunting stocks and shirts at Turnbull and Asser, also in Jermyn Street. . . . His Highness prefers blue for shirts and ties but also has gray ties and black and white ones.
Hawes and Curtis, Piccadilly Arcade and Jermyn Street, in the heart of the Club district, is a new firm, established in 1913.  Mr. Curtis is an authority on evening dress and has done more to keep shirt fronts from bulging out of up-creeping waistcoats than any other young man in London.  Evening shirts and waistcoats are made on scientific mathematical lines -- yet are chic withal.  Mr. Curtis explained to us that American men have a miserable time in evening clothes because their trousers aren't high enough.  Evening trousers must be cut high in the body and worn with braces so that the trouser top is above the waistline.  Then you can get a waistcoat to fit.
Dress shirts must be made so long as to allow an inch to an inch and a half between the top of the trousers and the bottom of the stiff front.  The stiff front must be narrow, too, so that it gives the impression of a broad chest.  A broad shirt front stands away from the chest instead of lying flat on it.  Things have been gradually getting better with shirt fronts though, Mr. Curtis says cheeringly.  This shop has a tailoring department which Jack Buchanan patronizes.
Turnbull and Asser, 71 Jermyn Street, are specialists in the most beautiful sports ties, shirts, cravats and pull-overs.  This is the one London shop which physically as well as spiritually is the masculine counterpart of a feminine Paris establishment. Everything is esthetically right here from the rhinoceros horn door-knobs and bottle-glass panes to the special dressing-gown salons in the basement.
The walls are bordered with sporting prints of famous English huntsmen and racing men, each autographed by the man himself.  Upstairs are the scarfs, shirts and Quorn hunting stocks, some embroidered in regimental, or club, or school insignia.  Downstairs are the dressing gowns, cabinets full of marvelously figured crepe de Chines lined in solid colors that harmonize, and are seen under blue bulbs that give perfect daylight.  The Duke of York, as well as the Prince of Wales, buys here.

Edited by CrimsonSox - 11/15/13 at 3:23am
post #22 of 131
Originally Posted by CrimsonSox View Post

Good call -- I was puzzled by that too, especially since the Duke wore a white vest in the photographs I've seen of him in a tailcoat.

Black vest? It is well known among the cognoscenti that the Duke occasionally doubled as a waiter. To show that the ex-monarch
was a man of the people, etc.
post #23 of 131
Thread Starter 

I wanted to help get a Scholte into the hands of JefferyD or another forum member.  I found two substantial archives.  The first is in the "Royal Ceremonial Dress Collection" at Kensington Palace. They have a single breasted tweed suit, a double breasted tweed suit, and an evening suit by Scholte.  They are usually not publicly displayed, but the museum notes that you can see them if you make an appointment with Jenny Wedgbury, jenny.wedgbury@hrp.org.uk, Tel. 020 3166 6626.  The Scholte suits are stored in the archives "for anyone studying costume history, design and fashion studies." http://www.hrp.org.uk/MediaPlayer/ViewPlaylist.aspx?PlaylistId=121&SiteMapId=1777 


The Royal Ceremonial Dress Collection at Kensington Palace was the archive that the costume designers for the film W.E. used to study the construction and measurements of the Duke of Windsor's suits: http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/entertainment/articles/2012-01/20/film-we-costume-designer-interview/viewgallery/4


A second archive is at the Costume Institute of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which has a morning suit, an evening suit, a double-breasted suit, and a tweed suit.  I'm not sure about their access policies: http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections?ft=scholte&ao=on&noqs=true

Edited by CrimsonSox - 11/19/13 at 8:14pm
post #24 of 131
Thread Starter 

Sometimes I like to dress like my crazy grand-uncle.




An unsurpassed fit by Scholte.  You wouldn't add or take away a millimeter from that perfectly proportioned shoulder.  The sleeve flows flawlessly into the jacket:



Scholte, 1939:


CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85


The sewing is extremely fine and is hardly visible in the shoulder and top of the sleevehead:


Created with The GIMP




PFU ScanSnap Manager #S1500

Edited by CrimsonSox - 11/19/13 at 12:43am
post #25 of 131
Thread Starter 

A cleanly finished lapel buttonhole (click for detail):


post #26 of 131
How did you find the book? Widener is not exactly browsable.
post #27 of 131
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

How did you find the book? Widener is not exactly browsable.


Hi Poorsod.   I did a Google book search for "F.P. Scholte" and "7 Savile Row" (the address of his firm) and saw the book.  I found it in the Widener catalog and borrowed it. I'll post more excerpts from it in the coming days, and a review of Savile Row tailors from the New Yorker, 1929.


In the archives, Scholte is sometimes misspelled "Sholte," so it's useful to search under that name (that's how I found the newspaper article above on the cost of his suits), as well as "Frederick Scholte."  Did you know, by the way, that Lawrence of Arabia was a client, when not wearing his Arab dress?  

post #28 of 131
Originally Posted by CrimsonSox View Post

..."Frederick Scholte."  Did you know, by the way, that Lawrence of Arabia was a client, when not wearing his Arab dress?  
I have not managed to verify other Scholte customers from the pictures available but this may be one of his (note the absence of a front dart and only un under arm one)

Edit: more pictures

Edited by marcodalondra - 11/23/13 at 2:49pm
post #29 of 131
Thread Starter 

A surprising combination -- JFK meets the Duke of Windsor:



Scholte and the perfect suit shoulder:




The Duke's engagement photo can be found on the excellent site Voxsartoria: http://www.voxsartoria.com/post/52481140628/the-stiff-white-collar-crowd-the-infamous.


Black tie:


Edited by CrimsonSox - 11/24/13 at 8:26pm
post #30 of 131
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

How did you find the book? Widener is not exactly browsable.
I have a copy at home. You are welcome to borrow it if you like.
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