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Leather Quality and Properties - Page 60

post #886 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I know this is a leather thread, but DW why is it that in a lot of bespoke shoes you see a split where the heel joins the sole? This transcription reminded me of this. I was under the impression that the sole extends all of the way through to the back of the shoe and the heel is attached over top of the sole. On bespoke is the whole heel its own piece? What are some of the reasons for this? Also, I noticed this is present on RTW G&G shoes, is this functional, or just a nod to its bespoke big brother?

PB,

As promised...from Golding Volume IV fig. 42...

Outsoles may be cut entire or with piece soles--3/4 sole and heel piece.

Fitting together those pieces was done several ways. The first and most obvious is bevel the heel seat edge of the outsole in one direction and the piece sole at an opposing angle. This was probably the most common.

The other way is/was known as "springing" and is illustrated below:



The seat end is cut square and the piece sole edge is cut concave. The outsole is secured at the seat end (as in fig 42A) and then the piece sole is secured in the center with some overlap as in fig 42C. The corners of the piece sole are then sprung back to create a tight physical junction between the outsole and the piece sole as in fig. 42D. This was known as a "stunt join."

I don't know if this answers your question or not, but FWIW...
post #887 of 1343
Very interesting, thank you!
post #888 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Very interesting, thank you!

fistbump.gif
post #889 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


As promised...from Golding Volume IV fig. 42...

Outsoles may be cut entire or with piece soles--3/4 sole and heel piece.

I think you'll find the explanation in the previous paragraph:
Quote:
In most of the heavier kinds of work, however, the soles only extend to somewhere under the heel (this is for reasons of economy) and require piecing to bring them to full length.

All the old books are obsessed with saving leather and achieving minimum wastage.

All those drawings, showing the last bit of hide being utilized, with patter pieces cut right out of belly, neck, flank, what have you. The warning that galosh sections have to be designed in a way that they can be laid-out like a pretzel (to avoid the waste in the centre of the galosh). Whole-cut designs not cut as a single piece, but as a 3/4 and a 1/4 piece.

I wonder, if the savings of a 3/4 sole are actually savings at all. After all, if sole and heel section are cut from different parts of the hide, they might have a differences in thickness. All that saving of leather is annulled by the additional skiving-work to get them both to the same thickness.

Oh well, I suppose labour was cheap those days.
post #890 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

I think you'll find the explanation in the previous paragraph:
All the old books are obsessed with saving leather and achieving minimum wastage.

All those drawings, showing the last bit of hide being utilized, with patter pieces cut right out of belly, neck, flank, what have you. The warning that galosh sections have to be designed in a way that they can be laid-out like a pretzel (to avoid the waste in the centre of the galosh). Whole-cut designs not cut as a single piece, but as a 3/4 and a 1/4 piece.

I wonder, if the savings of a 3/4 sole are actually savings at all. After all, if sole and heel section are cut from different parts of the hide, they might have a differences in thickness. All that saving of leather is annulled by the additional skiving-work to get them both to the same thickness.

Oh well, I suppose labour was cheap those days.

You're right. I read that. Just seemed beside the point of the 3/4 outsole and piece-sole.

I think you're correct about those pieces being cut from marginal parts of the hide. That's why...despite my admiration for the "stunt join," I don't do a 3/4 outsole.

During the Am. Civil War, the South was hard put to come up with large enough hides or good enough hides to make full height full wellingtons , esp. during the final years. So they started grafting pieces at the top. Eventually that became sort of acceptable and then morphed into a decorative element.


Something similar going on, perhaps.
post #891 of 1343

DWF-not sure if you'd see this in another thread but figure I'd ask you here. Apologies in advance, but it's off the topic of leather.

 

What other artisan industries are you interested in and which master craftsmen do you recommend? You're a very accomplished cordwainer, and I very much enjoy your style and absorbing your knowledge. I find that the more I hear from you, the more I am interested in learning about other old world industries you find interesting. I know you've dabbled in woodworking a bit, so I would love to see what other types of industries you find intriguing. 

 

I was curious whether you have any experience or are particularly fond of any of the rassieurmeisters (razor meisters) in the straight-razor industry. I've followed it for a few years and have really come to appreciate the craftsmanship associated with making straight razor blades (particularly the Damascus-steel blades). I imagine that you, working with your centuries old techniques with making shoes, would probably do the same in other parts of your life, including shave with a straight razor. 

 

I suppose the tie-in to this thread is what the best type of leather is for making razor-strops. The one I have currently is a bit-worn out, and I am looking for a new one. My go-to site is classicshaving.com, but I figure I'd ask the master about what type of leather historically produces the finest edges on steel and if you might know where I could locate such a strop. Many thanks in advance.

post #892 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by JermynStreet View Post

DWF-not sure if you'd see this in another thread but figure I'd ask you here. Apologies in advance, but it's off the topic of leather.

What other artisan industries are you interested in and which master craftsmen do you recommend? You're a very accomplished cordwainer, and I very much enjoy your style and absorbing your knowledge. I find that the more I hear from you, the more I am interested in learning about other old world industries you find interesting. I know you've dabbled in woodworking a bit, so I would love to see what other types of industries you find intriguing. 

I was curious whether you have any experience or are particularly fond of any of the rassieurmeisters (razor meisters) in the straight-razor industry. I've followed it for a few years and have really come to appreciate the craftsmanship associated with making straight razor blades (particularly the Damascus-steel blades). I imagine that you, working with your centuries old techniques with making shoes, would probably do the same in other parts of your life, including shave with a straight razor. 

I suppose the tie-in to this thread is what the best type of leather is for making razor-strops. The one I have currently is a bit-worn out, and I am looking for a new one. My go-to site is classicshaving.com, but I figure I'd ask the master about what type of leather historically produces the finest edges on steel and if you might know where I could locate such a strop. Many thanks in advance.



Thanks for the kind words. I'm not all that involved in other "old world industries" shoe making is probably one of the most eclectic enterprises I've ever run across. We work with so many different materials and techniques from rosins and pitch to linen yarn to leather and felt to bone and wood and metal...

As for the strops, I don't shave with a straight razor (don't like to shave, period) so all I can tell you is what was passed on to me--that horse makes the best strops. Both horse butt and shell. This question has come up before and in curiousity I did a Bing search and both Walking Horse Strops and the Imperial Shave website seem to be good sources.
post #893 of 1343

Thank you, kindly. Hope you had a nice thanksgiving.

post #894 of 1343
JS, check out knivesforum or other knives related forums. There are plenty of blade makers that do Damascus knives for a very decent price. As for strope, leather with diamond paste is good enough.

p.s., current rendition of Damascus blade isn't the same as the Damascus blade of yore.
post #895 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

JS, check out knivesforum or other knives related forums. There are plenty of blade makers that do Damascus knives for a very decent price. As for strope, leather with diamond paste is good enough.

p.s., current rendition of Damascus blade isn't the same as the Damascus blade of yore.

Will do. Thanks for the info. Damascus steel is the 60 spi of the blade making world. There are also some incredible samurai sword makers available too. I figure people who might like leather qualities might also find interesting how samurai and Damascus steel swords are made. Also, while we are on weaponry, the process to create the longbow is pretty amazing also.
post #896 of 1343
It's rare for people to create "Damascus" steel blade from scratch. Most just buy preformed Damascus patterned irons and shape them into blade. They are Damascus metal venders at knives trade shows...

60spi they are certainly not. They are aesthetically pleasing and that's it. And it's an effect created to imitate the crafts recipe of yore. In other words, they are the gemming or faux patina equivalent in the knives world except their functionality aren't compromised.

Metallurgy is actually advancing in a very good pace...
post #897 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

It's rare for people to create "Damascus" steel blade from scratch. Most just buy preformed Damascus patterned irons and shape them into blade. They are Damascus metal venders at knives trade shows...

60spi they are certainly not. They are aesthetically pleasing and that's it. And it's an effect created to imitate the crafts recipe of yore. In other words, they are the gemming or faux patina equivalent in the knives world except their functionality aren't compromised.

Metallurgy is actually advancing in a very good pace...

 It is not "rare" by any means.  It is entirely common among bladesmiths.  It is in fact a necessary prerequisite for ABS Master Smith accreditation, and most Journeyman Smiths are practising it as soon as they attain that rank, if not before.  While the more intricate and complex patterns are indeed very difficult to execute, basic random Damascus is pretty much a piece of cake.  If you can successfully forge a blade from monosteel, forge-welding two different steels into a single billet not any kind of a monumental challenge.

 

In terms of hype, I'd say it's easily a closer equivalent to the hand-welted shoe.

post #898 of 1343
If I had any doubts before, I don't anymore.
post #899 of 1343
Cool info guys, thanks. Any master bladesmen you recommend I look at? Razors or knives?
post #900 of 1343

For razors, Tim Zowada is da bomb.  Lloyd Harner is also excellent, and is more affordable.  I know these guys personally and have complete faith in their craftsmanship.  There are others, but razors aren't my specific thing, so I don't know as many.

 

For knives - it's a loooong list.  The talent pool among bladesmiths right now is truly staggering.  Recommendations depend on the type of knife you are looking for and the price range you are willing to embrace.  And how long you are willing to wait.  Some makers have waiting lists stretching years.  Longest I ever waited on a knife was 5 years.

 

In functional terms, $300 will buy you a hand forged hunting knife that will last you a lifetime.  But depending on materials, construction methods and the market position of the maker in question, you could easily spend more than $3,000 on a hunting knife.  It will be rather more special in many respects, but won't necessarily dress out a deer any better.

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