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Leather Quality and Properties - Page 55

post #811 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Those are the boots used to climb Everest?

Here is an article giving more details:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3007675.stm

The construction of the boot is something like double Norwegian; triple soled; hob-nailed.
post #812 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Shoemaker and forum member Janne Melkersson extolling the virtues of the fudge wheel and showing three samples of his (fudge-wheeled) work

http://www.styleforum.net/t/59653/a-tour-of-northampton/135#post_1184949


The workshop of Japanese shoemaker Ryota Hayafuji showing a large selection of fudge wheels



http://www.keikari.com/english/
It appears to me, that Allan D Worchester who writes in F Y Golding (1935) gives equal prominence to both methods (pricked and wheeled)
This description definitely refers to handwork. Obviously, you only have one go with wheeling and you end up with either a good job or a botched-up one.
Since when is 18th century Edwardian? As I said, I have seen fudge-wheeled Edwardian samples. Whether the method was quickly established or took a number of years to become the gold standard of British shoemaking, I wouldn't know. Maybe some 80 years ago when Golding edited his magnum opus, both methods had equal prominence. (There was a time when symmetrical and asymmetrical lasts fought it out to the bitter end. We all know who won.)

Can you name any present day English or French company who spurns the fudge wheel and show a recent photograph of their work? You regard John Lobb (London) as the best shoemakers in the world, all their stuff is wheeled.

 

Again, great info

post #813 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


It's simply experience and skill. That said if there were a longer stitch in amongst the tighter ones, it is possible to prick up so that they all look perfectly straight even if the stitches are not perfectly even. The makers at Colonial Williamsburg not only prick up by eye, they stitch by eye--and the mark of a "master" is the closeness and evenness of the work.

Also the pricking should be perpendicular to the edge of the welt even when going around the toe.

As for myself, I use a double prick set to 12 spi and simply mark the stitch spacing out before stitching ...sometimes in small sections(as I am stitching along) sometimes the whole welt ahead of time. I also use a caliper if I want larger stitches...like 10spi.

The fudge wheel doesn't take near as much skill to use as the stitch prick.

Parenthetically, when hand stitching of the welt is done correctly and pricked up correctly, the stitching appears as if it were a row of tiny beads. There is no "rope-like" twisting of the stitches apparent. That's why I said I thought I was much improved from that 2008 photo--you can see the "twist" in the stitching. I haven't had a problem with that for the last five/six + pairs...I'm pretty sure I've got it licked.

--

 

Thanks for the details.

post #814 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Here is a photo of two pricks...the bottom one I made myself (it's actually my favourite because it spreads the indent better. The top one is manufactured, probably of British and Edwardian provenance. nod[1].gif



The tool is held in the hand with the shoe in the other hand and often braced against the knee. The welt is moistened and the prick is eased, point first, in against the vamp. It is then pressed firmly into the welt between each stitch and given a sharp flick outward. It is quite fast. Maybe not as fast as fudging but not tedious or laborious--maybe 5-7 minutes per shoe?

I've always liked the term "fudge wheel" because in my opinion, it is exactly that--"fudging." Fudging precision. In fact, Salaman suggests that the term "fudge wheel" came about because "it can be used to 'fake up' the welt to appear stitched."

As the prick is pressed into the welt it firms up the leather, it draws the thread deeper into the welt and the hole, and it forces the leather under the stitch up a little to make the stitch a little more proud.

Any tool that would flatten the stitches (and I'm not saying a fudge will) is counter-productive.

And a good prick man can even push stitches that have jumped out of "the line of stitch" back into place and straighten twisted stitches. A fudge wheel can't do that.

In passing, fudging does no harm. Whether is does any good, or anything in the way of what stitch pricking evolved to do, is another question. I wouldn't argue with or condemn anyone for preferring to use the fudge...I just don't care for it myself. It doesn't fit into my view of "best practices."

If nothing else, pricking is, IMO, just another little bit of refinement that just doesn't seem to "get there" when fudging is used.
--

From the first picture it looks like the prick is used to push the thread on the hole whereas the second you made is more designed to do both, make an indent as well as flick to just raise the welt leather in between a bit and tighten the string....

You have mentioned Williamsburg and how they make shoes the old fashioned way, they do it to keep the art alive or they do it to sell?
post #815 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstomcat View Post


From the first picture it looks like the prick is used to push the thread on the hole whereas the second you made is more designed to do both, make an indent as well as flick to just raise the welt leather in between a bit and tighten the string....

You have mentioned Williamsburg and how they make shoes the old fashioned way, they do it to keep the art alive or they do it to sell?

 

I think their primary purpose (aside from preserving history) is to provide shoes for the employees of Colonial Williamsburg.  They all dress in traditional colonial clothing, and everything is made on site using original techniques and equipment.  So essentially, they are making shoes for a small town.

post #816 of 1343
Interesting, have to visit some day
post #817 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstomcat View Post

Interesting, have to visit some day

 

It is worth it.  Definitely a cool place.

post #818 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

I think their primary purpose (aside from preserving history) is to provide shoes for the employees of Colonial Williamsburg.  They all dress in traditional colonial clothing, and everything is made on site using original techniques and equipment.  So essentially, they are making shoes for a small town.

That's correct. The site is sponsored/funded by a non-profit foundation. It is my understanding that it has close ties to the government...sort of like public broadcasting.

Shoes are made only or mostly for employees. One of the most interesting Trades preserved, although not active from what I understand, is that of wig making.

And it really is worth the visit.
post #819 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstomcat View Post

From the first picture it looks like the prick is used to push the thread on the hole whereas the second you made is more designed to do both, make an indent as well as flick to just raise the welt leather in between a bit and tighten the string....
Spot on. The manufactured prick does make an indentation but it doesn't spread the leather as much. I suppose that if we got down to cases, the manufactured one is the more Traditional.

Stitch pricks are almost the ultimate...if not original...multi-tasker in shoemaking, however. I use the thin one to clean seams, define edges on outsoles and heels, spreading glue and clearing glue, as well as clean stitches of excess wax.

I use the handmade one for all those chores plus opening channels, pressing insole lining into corners. And a lot more uses that escape my mind at the moment.

I can't count all the times I reach for the pricker-up, but probably as much or more than any other tool esp. when bottoming.
post #820 of 1343
The following was an interesting exercise...and that's all it was--an exercise. "Quick and dirty." I am not claiming that this represents reality in the sense that the quality and moisture content of the leather and the usage of the tools is what they would be in context. However, the leather is similar to welting ...or at least the kind of leather that has traditionally been used for welting--such as insole shoulder; it has been moistened and allowed to dry back to just "tempered".

In the photos below, the pricking on the extreme right is my own "stitch prick."

To the left of that group is the manufactured prick.

And on the extreme left is the output of an unused Barnsley fudge wheel set for 12spi.

The two example of stitch prick output were done with about the same pressure as I would apply to pricking up a welt.

I really had to lean on the fudge wheel to get as deep an impression as I did. I don't know if I could apply that much pressure in actual usage. It was more pressure certainly than was necessary for the stitch pricks. I think you'd have to go to a bench-top fudging machine to get comparable indentations. That said, I did not heat the fudge wheel so that's one strike against my technique with it...there may be others.

So...for what it's worth:



Edge on...notice how deep the indentations are:





--
Edited by DWFII - 11/7/13 at 12:11pm
post #821 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The following was an interesting exercise...and that's all it was: an exercise. I am not claiming that this represents reality in the sense that the quality and moisture content of the leather and the usage of the tools is what they would be in context. However, the leather is similar to welting ...or at least the kind of leather that has traditionally been used for welting--insole shoulder; it has been moistened and allowed to dry back to just "tempered".

In the photos below, the pricking on the extreme right is my own "stitch prick." the next to the left of that group is the manufactured prick. And on the left is an unused Barnsley fudge wheel set for 12spi.

the two example of stitch prick output were done with about the same pressure as I would apply to pricking up a welt. The fudge wheel, I really leaned on to get as deep an impression as I did. I don't know if I could apply that much pressure in actual usage. It was more pressure certainly than was necessary for the stitch pricks. I think you'd have to go to a bench-top fudging machine to get comparable indentations. That said, I did not heat the fudge wheel so that's one strike against my technique with it...there may be others.

So...for what it's worth:

  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 


Edge on...notice how deep the indentations are:

  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 

 

Very impressive, and that is a night and day difference between the stitch prick and the fudge wheel.  Thanks for demonstrating!

post #822 of 1343
The difference is obvious and expected of doing each prick individually as opposed to rolling the wheel. Wonder what the difference would look like with the wheel heated up....
post #823 of 1343
I love heating up my prick.
post #824 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstomcat View Post

The difference is obvious and expected of doing each prick individually as opposed to rolling the wheel. Wonder what the difference would look like with the wheel heated up....

I'm thinking not much, really. I think the heat "sets" the fudging but the admonitions from the "masters" is that you don't want to get the roller too hot. Not hot enough to damage the leather, in any event. So for rough purposes...such as this exercise...I didn't feel it would make a difference. I could be wrong, but I'm from Missouri.
post #825 of 1343
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

I love heating up my prick.

Not to mention keeping your "yicky-yecky" polished and your "whang" pulled tight. But we don't heat the "prick," just the fudge wheel.

Soon you'll be a real "snab."

biggrin.gif:nodding:
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