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Leather Quality and Properties - Page 32

post #466 of 1303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by VegTan View Post

I'm anonymous, but owner of each excerpt isn't. I don't understand why this is problematic.


It's not that you are anonymous (to some degree or another most everyone here is anonymous) but that your postings are "functionally anonymous" (I don't know if it's a language thing or not but I suspect you're not reading, you're skimming).

Functionally anonymous--at the very least, the point is that no one...especially not you...is taking responsibility or can be held accountable for the information you're posting. And the people you're quoting aren't here to explain or discuss. Because of that, the excerpts threaten to become nothing more than a tool to bludgeon people. And no one gets their hands dirty.

I read "functional", but it was too abstract for me to understand. Now I understand discussion here with the author is essential for you.

My view is this: When I read your opinion quoted by someone on another forum, if its source is given, its credibility isn't lost. I think non-experts may have a conversation with experts but that non-experts cannot have a discussion with experts, so I accept inconsistent experts' opinions as they are. You may think I denied your opinion, but I didn't mean to do.

Quote:
In point of fact, I don't have all that much objection to you posting links...occasionally, sparingly...to inform. What I object to is your insistence that the information you're posting is gospel even in the face of more in-depth and better reasoned remarks.

As for "gospel", if I remember correctly, I have never written you are wrong (I am right).

What I think is most irresponsible is there is no consensus on mineral oil among experts (leather care manufacturers, tanneries, and leather goods manufacturers & suppliers). As I implied, I suspect Vaseline is guilty and that mineral oil is falsely charged, though this is just a lay opinion.

Quote:
The fact is that you don't know whether any of what you post is true or not. You don't even have any basis (experience) to conjecture. That's the problem.

At least, scientific research is based on promise to write papers honestly, so there is little or no reason to doubt the experimental result by Dow Corning. Is this explanation unacceptable?
post #467 of 1303

I do hope that some middle ground can be found here. I, for one, have learned a great deal on this thread, from a range of people. I sure that is the case for many others. I would think that in matters of leather, experience counts as much empirical data. Could we get back to the heady days of posts about leather, please!

post #468 of 1303
Can you experts discuss the waxes used for surface treatment? So far, I have heard of carnauba and paraffin as the primary waxes for this purpose. Lanolin, it appears has too low a melting point. I would think beeswax should work, but it seems to be reserved for waterproofing. Are there other waxes used for waxing shoes?
post #469 of 1303
Were are good online sources for an amateur to buy leather, for experimentation with making small leather goods and such? Options that span the price/quality gamut are appreciated...
post #470 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Can you experts discuss the waxes used for surface treatment? So far, I have heard of carnauba and paraffin as the primary waxes for this purpose. Lanolin, it appears has too low a melting point. I would think beeswax should work, but it seems to be reserved for waterproofing. Are there other waxes used for waxing shoes?

I would say that beeswax and carnauba wax are the most commonly used waxes in shoe polish, with paraffin wax being used less often. However, I believe Venetian shoe cream is composed of a liquid paraffin mixed with turpentine. All hydrocarbons from paraffin wax to mineral oil fall into the paraffin class.

Kiwi lists carnauba wax as the wax ingredient in their standard paste polish.

Lanolin, although technically a wax, is more like a fat (sans glycerides) and acts as such when used in shoe polish.

Other wax options, not as frequently used in shoe polish, are Japan wax and Candelilla wax.

Each wax has a different degree of hardness, which is somewhat reflected in its melting point.

Waxes in order of hardness:

Carnauba Wax: Melting Point (183F), source (leaves of the palm plant Copernicia prunifera grown in Brazil).

Candelilla Wax: Melting Point (155F), source (candelilla shrub found in Southwest U.S. and Northern Mexico).

Beeswax: Melting Point (145F), source (honey bees).

Paraffin Wax: Melting Point (140F), source (petroleum distillate - paraffin class hydrocarbon).

Japan Wax: Melting Point (124F), source (fruit of the Rhus Succedanea tree grown in Japan).

Some polishes use a combination of waxes.

As a side note: Lanolin has a melting point of 105F, and comes from sheep.
post #471 of 1303

Glen,

 

That is very helpful, thanks.

Are there reasons to prefer certain waxes over others based on the type of leather? Shell vs calf? Calf vs exotics? Different textures or thicknesses of calf?

 

I have seen people here and elsewhere recommend greasy products for treating work boots. The idea, I gather, is that these impart more water resistance than the treatments usually used for dress shoes. But they caution against using them for dress shoes. Others say never to use such things on leather, regardless of the intended use.

 

I would expect low melting point waxes to be challenging to acheive or maintain a shine as the wax softens from the warmth of being worn. Other than that, are there differences that matter?


Right now I am on a natural kick, trying to stay with compounds that could have been used for centuries, and therefore likely to avoid materials toxic to me when I apply them. For boots, that has meant beeswax and lanolin for uppers. For dress shoes the lanolin seems to stay tacky, so I use it as a sort of conditioner, but not a top treatment. For the surface appearance of dress shoes I am playing with a combination of beeswax and carnauba. Melting them, mixing with some sort of vegetable-derived oil, and applying is fun, but more experimental than a final solution.

 

So, same wax for calf, exotic, and shell, or different waxes for each one?

Whatever the answer, why?

post #472 of 1303
Some people (Ron Rider) say neatsfoot oil for shell.
post #473 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Glen,

That is very helpful, thanks.
Are there reasons to prefer certain waxes over others based on the type of leather? Shell vs calf? Calf vs exotics? Different textures or thicknesses of calf?

I have seen people here and elsewhere recommend greasy products for treating work boots. The idea, I gather, is that these impart more water resistance than the treatments usually used for dress shoes. But they caution against using them for dress shoes. Others say never to use such things on leather, regardless of the intended use.

I would expect low melting point waxes to be challenging to acheive or maintain a shine as the wax softens from the warmth of being worn. Other than that, are there differences that matter?


Right now I am on a natural kick, trying to stay with compounds that could have been used for centuries, and therefore likely to avoid materials toxic to me when I apply them. For boots, that has meant beeswax and lanolin for uppers. For dress shoes the lanolin seems to stay tacky, so I use it as a sort of conditioner, but not a top treatment. For the surface appearance of dress shoes I am playing with a combination of beeswax and carnauba. Melting them, mixing with some sort of vegetable-derived oil, and applying is fun, but more experimental than a final solution.

So, same wax for calf, exotic, and shell, or different waxes for each one?
Whatever the answer, why?

I followed a similar path when I created my GlenKaren shoe polish. The first priority was to find the best ingredients for shoe leather, the second priority was all-natural ingredients, and the third priority was to produce a product with a pleasant smell (so my wife would let polish my shoes in the house).

You question touches on oils as well as waxes, so I will try to touch on both. You also ask about leather types which is a broader topic, but directly relevant to care products.

First there are different types of cow leather, as has been discussed in this thread, but for the sake of care there are really only a few differences to consider, but these differences are based on a number of factors; these factors include methods of how the leather was stuffed in the tanning process (fatliquoried, hot stuffed, wet stuffed).

There is also the direction of the leather (grain out versus flesh out), and the finish on the leather such as full aniline, semi-aniline, and corrected grain, as well as the amount and ratio of oils and waxes stuffed into the leather.

There are also the differences in the material type to consider. Calf is typically going to be thinner and tighter grained than other leather. Shell cordovan is really not grained leather like cow, but rather a subdermal sheath from the butt of a horse, and is treated like hot stuffed flesh out leather.

Exotic skins do not have a grain so to speak, but rather plates or scales and doesn’t really have much of a corium (where the majority of conditioning oils reside in leather), and as such does not benefit much from conditioning.

And finally, there is the general difference in leather thickness used for various applications, as in thicker leather for work boots and thinner leather for dress/business shoes.

With those considerations in mind (the why), I believe the following is applicable for leather care:

In general I would suggest a quality (containing no petroleum distillates) cream shoe polish for most leathers, even exotics.

In specific I would not recommend shoe care products high in wax (as in paste/wax polish) on oiled leathers like Chromexcel /Pull up. Products like SnoSeal which are mostly beeswax (and vey thick) are good for helping weatherproof thicker boot leather, but would tend to smother thinner shoe leather.

I would not recommend shoe care products high in oils (dubbin, Obenauf's, etc…) on calf skin, thinner leather, exotic leathers, cordovan shell, or corrected grain. The thicker leather of work boots can accommodate the higher levels of oil, which also helps in moisture protection.

I would not recommend shoe care products high is solvents (cleaner/conditioners) on corrected grain leather, shell cordovan, or exotic leathers.

There are also products designed specifically for exotic leather care.

When I mention corrected grain I am referring to bookbinder type leather where there is a substantial acrylic finish.

As far as differences in wax: Beeswax is softer so it spreads easier and creates a good glow shine when brushed. Carnauba wax is a little harder so it does not spread as easily, but creates a good spit shine. I simply avoid paraffin wax.

The wax in shoe polish tends to remain mostly on the surface of the leather so the type of wax in not directly relevant to the type of leather (this is not true in the tanning process when the leather is stuffed).

On a side note: Neatsfoot oil can contain mineral oil, even when it is stated to be 100% Neatsfoot oil.
post #474 of 1303
Thanks for the detailed post Glen
post #475 of 1303

My apologies in advance for a stupid question: is there a difference between Vegetal and Vegetable tanned leather?

post #476 of 1303
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Some people (Ron Rider) say neatsfoot oil for shell.

I'm curious about what kind of oils (& waxes) Horween applies on shell.

http://www.selectism.com/2012/05/04/inside-horween-leather-shot-by-nick-horween/




Quote:
Originally Posted by JermynStreet View Post

My apologies in advance for a stupid question: is there a difference between Vegetal and Vegetable tanned leather?

"Vegetal tanned" is not in ASTM D1517-06 Standard Terminology Relating to Leather and DICTIONARY of terms used in the HIDES, SKINS, AND LEATHER TRADE, so it seems not to be a technical term.



BTW, here are examples of natural and chemical materials for shoe care.

http://www.tapir.de/shop_content.php?coID=11



http://www.pedag.de/en/further-information/ingredients.html
http://www.pedag.de/en/products/shoecare.html

pedag CRYSTAL GEL
Aqua; Nitrocellulose; Butoxyethyl Acetate; Triethanolamine; Carbomer; Lanolin; Glycol Montanate; Chloroacetamide; Fatty Alcohol Ethoxylate, Poly(Oxy-1,2-Ethanediyl), .Alpha.-(Tributylphenyl)-.Omega.-Hydroxy-(1-7 Mol Eo)

pedag CRYSTAL GEL contains lanolin that keeps the leather elastic and moist. Natural waxes contribute to the intense care effect of the leather cream polish and provide a stronger shine.


pedag PATENT & REPTILE LEATHER FOAM
Aqua; Alcohol; Dimethyl Ether; Butane; Propane; Silicone; Poly(Oxy-1,2-Ethanediyl), .Alpha.-Hydro-.Omega.-Hydroxy Ethane-1,2-Diol, Ethoxylated


pedag LEATHER & PATENT LEATHER LOTION
Aqua; Triethanolamine; Nitrocellulose; Butoxyethyl Acetate; Acrylic Polymer; Lanolin; Glycol Montanate; Chloroacetamide; Fatty Alcohol Ethoxylate; Poly(Oxy-1,2-Ethanediyl), .Alpha.-(Tributylphenyl)-.Omega.-Hydroxy-(1-7 Mol Eo)

The carefully selected ingredients make our leather care lotion special:
- Lanolin moisturises the leather. It becomes smooth and supple again.
- Exclusive shea butter also smoothes the surface while gently cleaning the delicate material.
- Fluorocarbon resin has a gentle waterproofing effect. For complete protection against the elements, you should additionally use the pedag WATERPROOFER.


pedag LEATHER WAX
Lubricating Oils (Petroleum), C20-50, Hydrotreated Neutral Oil-Based; Paraffin; Hydrocarbon Waxes (Petroleum); Hydrotreated Microcryst.; Copernicia Cerifera Cera; Mustela Oil; Cera Alba; Stearyl Behenate; Parfum; Behenic Acid; Acetophenone

If you want a real in-depth treatment for your shoes, pedag LEATHER WAX with nourishing mink oil is the perfect choice. The rich shoe wax also contains moisturising lanolin and natural bees and carnauba waxes. It effectively removes the dirt off your shoes and keeps the leather smooth and supple.


pedag LEATHER SOAP
Aqua; Fatty Acids, Mixed Coco And Tallow, Sodium Salts; Sodium Borate; Glycerin; Parfum; Magnesium Nitrate; Methylisothiazolinone/Methylchloroisothiazolinone


pedag FOAM CARE
Aqua; Butane; Isopropyl Alcohol; Propane; Sodium Laureth-6 Carboxylate; Peg-75 Lanolin


pedag SUPER CLEANER
Butane; Naphtha (Petroleum), Hydrotreated Heavy; Isopropyl Alcohol; Naphtha (Petroleum), Hydrotreated Light; Propane
post #477 of 1303
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post #478 of 1303
Apparently before shell goes out the door they use Venetian to shine it up. I am very curious about the effect of pigments are on leather. Both dyeing in the factory and pigments in polish. Does either have negative effects? Does it act as an abrasive?

I remember DW a long time ago mentioning how he comes across more black shoes that crack than brown. The way I see it is there could be a few reasons for this:

1. Leather used for black shoes is somewhat inferior and the black dye can cover up, or make variations in grain less noticeable than in more transparent brown shoes.

2. Black pigments are somehow more abrasive to leather, and/or more is needed to make the shoe consistently black than a shade of brown thus being somewhat detrimental to the leather.

3. People tend to take care of black shoes less often because they tend to not show scuffs, scrapes, and normal wear and tear as easily.

If somebody could give more info on pigments it would be interesting, both dye jobs and pigments in polishes. On Glenjay's site it shows pigments as being in a powder like form. Curious as whether that can cause unwanted abrasion.
post #479 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Apparently before shell goes out the door they use Venetian to shine it up. I am very curious about the effect of pigments are on leather. Both dyeing in the factory and pigments in polish. Does either have negative effects? Does it act as an abrasive?

I remember DW a long time ago mentioning how he comes across more black shoes that crack than brown. The way I see it is there could be a few reasons for this:

1. Leather used for black shoes is somewhat inferior and the black dye can cover up, or make variations in grain less noticeable than in more transparent brown shoes.

2. Black pigments are somehow more abrasive to leather, and/or more is needed to make the shoe consistently black than a shade of brown thus being somewhat detrimental to the leather.

3. People tend to take care of black shoes less often because they tend to not show scuffs, scrapes, and normal wear and tear as easily.

If somebody could give more info on pigments it would be interesting, both dye jobs and pigments in polishes. On Glenjay's site it shows pigments as being in a powder like form. Curious as whether that can cause unwanted abrasion.

I can touch on the pigment aspect to some degree, but I am not an expert on dyes to any degree. My understanding is that aniline dyed leather is dyed completely through, semi-aniline dyed is surface dyed and coated with a colored finish as well, and corrected grain would be a coated color finish over an embossed grain. Others could probably address this more specifically and accurately.

In regard to pigment: A pigment must be insoluble in the medium which carries it, resulting in suspension. In the case of shoe polish the carrier medium is the wax, as this is the greater bonding agent in the mix, so the pigment is suspended within the wax - basically coloring the wax. The pigment is a very fine powder, and since it is suspended (encapsulated) within the wax it would not become an abrasion factor, regardless of color.

As far as your supposition #1: I suspect there is some validity to it, but DW would have a much better perspective on this.

#3 would be really hard to prove, but I know that my shoe care routine goes through my rotation regardless of color.
post #480 of 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by JermynStreet View Post

My apologies in advance for a stupid question: is there a difference between Vegetal and Vegetable tanned leather?

Vegetal is a general term for any process/product created using a vegetable/plant base. Vegetable based food coloring would be considered Vegetal.

So... Vegetable tanned leather is Vegetal in regard to the process, but not necessarily the product. I hope that makes sense.
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