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Leather Quality and Properties - Page 144

post #2146 of 2202
It's been a while, but I thought I'd chime in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The shell I've used (Horween) and seen is usually about 4 ounce maybe 5.

We try for a finished product as close to 5 oz as possible. This weight will vary across the Shell and weight falls off towards what was the rear of the hide. It is not impossible to see a 2 oz difference from one side of the shell to the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Yes, "technically" any leather with a "painted" opaque finish is corrected grain.

edited for punctuation and clarity

Corrected grain leather refers to leather that has grain that has been either partially or completely removed by a buffing (sanding) machine. There are different grits, papers, machines, and pressures that are used to achieve a very wide range of results. How the leather is finished will then determine what the surface looks like and how it performs.

I'm digging up old posts from months ago, but we do not have a "ghost writer" doing any of the media that you read and Shell Cordovan is technically full grain, at least the way we do it. The grain is left intact though it is the flesh side that becomes the finished product. All of the flesh is removed away to expose the shell which lies within the hide.
post #2147 of 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHorween View Post

Corrected grain leather refers to leather that has grain that has been either partially or completely removed by a buffing (sanding) machine. There are different grits, papers, machines, and pressures that are used to achieve a very wide range of results. How the leather is finished will then determine what the surface looks like and how it performs.

Well, I did put a set of quotations marks around the word 'technically.' But IMO...and in context...I think the remark was correct right out of the box.

A finished, "painted" leather doesn't come off the animal like that. Which is the first and most important test, as far as I'm concerned. The grain surface has been "corrected" in a sense to present a smoother, more opaque surface.

Only crust and aniline dyed leathers are not "technically" corrected.

--
Edited by DWFII - 6/28/16 at 2:19pm
post #2148 of 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHorween View Post

Shell Cordovan is technically full grain, at least the way we do it. The grain is left intact though it is the flesh side that becomes the finished product. All of the flesh is removed away to expose the shell which lies within the hide.

A quick question for you...

Where does horse butt come from?

It has always been my understanding that the "shell" is a ligament or membrane beneath the hide...maybe something like "silver skin." And that the top grain was split or removed and tanned / finished separately....ie. "horse butt."

In fact, I have some shell (it may not be Horween, although where I would have gotten it if not from Horween, beats me) and it is clearly not top grain. The non-finished side is fiberous and when skived there is no distinct grain layer.

It seems to me that if the fleshside is the finished side, it would be the most porous and coarse surface as the fiber structure and density of the leather typically gets more "open" the further it is from the epidermis.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 6/28/16 at 3:05pm
post #2149 of 2202
To us, butts and shells are the same. A horsehide yields us three products, the front, the strip, and the butt/shells: http://horween.com/leathers/equine-hyde-chart/. The shell has always been described to me as a membrane that forms like a callous from the movement of the animal. The larger/older the animal the larger the shells tend to be.

We leave the grain intact and in place as this helps improve tensile strength. The shell is laminated to the layers around it and we only remove material to expose it on one side.

Our Shell Cordovan has no flesh left as we remove it all to expose the shell. On a normal piece of leather the layers below the grain are less dense, as you say. I've attached a picture showing the front and back of a shell. The non-colored side clearly shows as full grain. If you skive the non-colored side away then you will remove the grain and it will appear as fine suede.

post #2150 of 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHorween View Post

To us, butts and shells are the same. A horsehide yields us three products, the front, the strip, and the butt/shells: http://horween.com/leathers/equine-hyde-chart/. The shell has always been described to me as a membrane that forms like a callous from the movement of the animal. The larger/older the animal the larger the shells tend to be.

We leave the grain intact and in place as this helps improve tensile strength. The shell is laminated to the layers around it and we only remove material to expose it on one side.

Our Shell Cordovan has no flesh left as we remove it all to expose the shell. On a normal piece of leather the layers below the grain are less dense, as you say. I've attached a picture showing the front and back of a shell. The non-colored side clearly shows as full grain. If you skive the non-colored side away then you will remove the grain and it will appear as fine suede.


Thank you for your reply.

I have seen boots (and shoes) made from horse hide...sometimes mulehide. Looked like full grain calf...sort of. In any case it wasn't shell and I'm pretty sure it wasn't shoulder. I was told...years ago...that it was butt--it was, IOW, pretty much the same cut as would be considered prime on any hide and the same cut as if it were calf.

Just a further question...is including the grain long time standard procedure at Horween or relatively new? I ask because, as I say, I have a shell right in front of me that is clearly not top grain and I have always dealt with US suppliers. Also, I am trying to figure where, and who, and why, I was told that the top grain was split off--how I came to that knowledge, IOW..
post #2151 of 2202
My guess is that you have a piece of shell cordovan from Shinki or maybe Comipel. My understanding is that both Shinki and Comipel skive their shell down to a consistent thickness, though @Deusis would probably be the best to comment on this.

I have a couple of shells from Shinki that I got from Hardtke leather. The unfinished side looks like it's definitely been processed in some way. It has a slight suede-like texture with an unusual regular pattern pressed into it:
post #2152 of 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlai View Post

My guess is that you have a piece of shell cordovan from Shinki or maybe Comipel. My understanding is that both Shinki and Comipel skive their shell down to a consistent thickness, though @Deusis would probably be the best to comment on this.

I have a couple of shells from Shinki that I got from Hardtke leather. The unfinished side looks like it's definitely been processed in some way. It has a slight suede-like texture with an unusual regular pattern pressed into it:

Kind of suede-like but no pattern.
post #2153 of 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The shell I've used (Horween) and seen is usually about 4 ounce maybe 5.


Ah ok guess that was kind of a silly question on my part!

For the same ounce, which is thicker? Horween shell or chromexcel and roughly by how many mm?
post #2154 of 2202
Well, with NickH posting here about their own leather, that might be a question better asked of him.

That said, Horween's own page (http://horween.com/leathers/full-tannage-list/) indicates that cordovan is available in "light weights only," whereas chromeXL is available in a "full range of weights."

4-5 ounce is roughly 1.5mm-2mm.
post #2155 of 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Just a further question...is including the grain long time standard procedure at Horween or relatively new? I ask because, as I say, I have a shell right in front of me that is clearly not top grain and I have always dealt with US suppliers. Also, I am trying to figure where, and who, and why, I was told that the top grain was split off--how I came to that knowledge, IOW..

This is a long time (since 1905) standard procedure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amlai View Post

I have a couple of shells from Shinki that I got from Hardtke leather. The unfinished side looks like it's definitely been processed in some way. It has a slight suede-like texture with an unusual regular pattern pressed into it:

I'm surprised to see that pattern, that is a result of vacuum drying leather. Moisture is sucked out of the leather in a low pressure vessel over a screen, which leaves that pattern.

5 oz is not really lightweight in the rest of the world. For us full range of weights means we can process it up to 10 oz.
post #2156 of 2202

I have a question about why shoes can form these two different wrinkles at the ball while flexing if the fit is good on both.  I have this 2 new shoes in museum calf leather (pewter with excellent quality leather but not the brown one).  I have a good fitting on both, specially the pewter one.

 

 

This is how they look while flexing.

 

 

I am curious to have your opinion about what could lead to such a different wrinkles despite that they have different patterns.

 

1.-The differences in leather quality.

2.-The pattern of the brown shoe is not accurate having a short and narrow captoe tapering too much?.

3.-Fit is off, although I feel the brown pair fitting me well (HtoB, lenght, widht, cap toe, instep...).

 

I have checked the height /girth of both shoes at the ball area and they seem similar to me eyes (I thought some higher profile at the vamp of the brown one could be the reason) but, as you can see, the cap toe in the brown one is much narrower and shorter.

 

Thoughts?.

 

PS.-I have another mid tier Oxford that forms the same wrinkles at the ball and the they have a wider cap toe than the brown one showed here and the fit is really good .

post #2157 of 2202
Length of the toe and toe stiffener plays a huge role in where your shoes crease. Additionally you're comparing creasing on a well-fitting Lobb shoe with a well fitting Meermin shoe. Leather quality will certainly play a strong roll.
post #2158 of 2202

Yep,  Maybe is a bit of here and a bit of there but I think leather definitely plays an important part.

post #2159 of 2202
You are comparing a brand who make one/two pair of shoes from an hide, with a brand which use even the last millimeter of those expensive leather.
Obviusly JL select the denser and better part of the hide for his vamps, with Meermin is only a matter of luck, some pair can be perfect, others very poor.

Anyway the creases on your Meermin are perfectly acceptable.
post #2160 of 2202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

I have a question about why shoes can form these two different wrinkles at the ball while flexing if the fit is good on both.  I have this 2 new shoes in museum calf leather (pewter with excellent quality leather but not the brown one).  I have a good fitting on both, specially the pewter one.

This is how they look while flexing.

I am curious to have your opinion about what could lead to such a different wrinkles despite that they have different patterns.

Thoughts?.

All manner of considerations enter into this--the length of the caps; depth of the forepart of the last; width of the insole; the quality and substance of the vamp / upper leather; the quality and thickness of the lining leather; the underlying structure... such as whether there are mid-liners or not...the structure and articulation of your feet.

Foot to foot...nevermind the shoes themselves... even if your feet are exactly the same length, there can be discrepancies in the way the shoes crease. And if one foot is even slightly longer than the other (and almost every one has such feet) it is almost a guarantee that the shoes will crease differently.

I suspect the business with feet is self evident but combined with the aspects of the shoes that are different and the best one can usually hope for is "similar."
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