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Leather Quality and Properties - Page 15

post #211 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

You are right, I did mention it initially, but then it became a victim of editing. Fox hunts have been replaced by drag hunts which are probably not as unpredictable as hunting a living animal.

Hunting foxes with hounds is still legal in Northern Ireland.

Got to give the jolly old chaps somewhere to terrorise animals eh, what what?
post #212 of 1312

Actually, I asked about wearing patched shoes, now and in the past, for curiosity. I am among that, I suspect large, group of people who don't really care what strangers on the internet, who have never seen me, think of my clothes. But I am curious as to whether wearing patched shoes is as odd as some have suggested, very common, or somewhere in between. Also curious whether it was more common in the past.

 

I know very little about Prince Charles, and I targeted my remarks to him only because others had brought him up, and I could not see the problems with his shoes. Having had it pointed out, I SUPPOSE I can see what you are talking about, but I find it impossible to get exercised over what he, or anyone else, might choose to wear. I do find it interesting that he is mentioned on SF for being well dressed, but also here condemned for his "worn out" shoes. 

 

I am not hoping anyone will give me permission to wear worn out shoes. Remember, these are strangers on the internet, and I don't need their permission to  do anything.

 

But back to my statement, I have far lower standards for dress than a member of the royal family, I am never on TV, I do not appear at Court, and I have far less money than Prince Charles.  He is considered well dressed, old shoes and all. That implies that I can be considered dressed well enough for my purposes without bespoke suits or Lobb shoes.

Or am I missing something about these worn out shoes? Besides some finding them unappealing, are they dangerous to one's feet? More likely to result in foot injury or infection? Cold in the winter? Hot in the summer? Maintained with toxic chemicals? Otherwise, I have seen lots worse. Much worse in fact.

 

Admiration for him? Frankly, I am baffled by the UK support for the royal family. But it is a democracy, and the citizens there could end the financial support, reclaim the residences, etc if they wanted to. I gather the role of the royals is a political issue over there, but most seem content with the way things are. It would not fly in the US, but as a democracy, it is up to the people of the UK to decide how to deal with this legacy of their monarchy. Mildly interesting, but I really don't care. But he gets mentioned a lot on SF, so someone seems to care about him, or at least his clothes.

post #213 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

I do not know which tannery (or finisher) supplies 'Wax Calf' (it might not even be an English supplier any more), but “Wax Calf” (reversed cow hide) is very much alive and well in England, after all it is the material for the boots of the household cavalry:

You may be correct, I can't say--I don't have access to everything available on that side of the pond.

But just to reiterate Waxed Calf is not just "reversed cow hide". It was...and still is, AFAIK...a very specific process and result. Reading the description I posted may clarify things, for you.

And as I also said anything can be called waxed calf...all you need is shoe polish on calfskin. Throw some Sno-Seal on some suede shoes and suddenly you've got waxed calf.

Or so some would like us to believe.
post #214 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

DWF, what is the purpose of pegging soles? Does this actually hold the sole onto the welt/upper in the closely trimmed areas, or is it more of a decorative thing? I do notice on my St. Crispins they wood peg the arch areas of the sole and the stitching that holds the sole to the welt terminates just after the ball area of the foot.

Pegging outsoles goes all the way back to Roman times. But esp. during the late 19th century ans esp. here in the states, it was one of several means of outsoling a pair of shoes or boots.

Most American Civil War era boots, both for the military and for civilians, were pegged, and cowboy boots...which evolved post war and were heavily influenced by Officers boots...were pegged. To this day the Traditional way to deal with the waist on a cowboy boot is to peg it.

In the waist, and for the use, pegs have been shown to be more durable than stitching.

--
Edited by DWFII - 8/1/13 at 8:19am
post #215 of 1312
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Following an old 19th century receipt (recipe) I tried making some waxed calf. Going into it I knew that my chances of success were limited--no access to best quality East India Kip (meaning a coarser fiber mat on the fleshside), no chance to store the stuffed hide in a warm attic, no full tree, and no lampblack. Nevertheless I got pretty close ( I know this because I had some vintage waxed calf to compare to).

Here is Foster's Waxed Calf (taken by Mrs. Matsuda), which is in the process of polishing and boning. She wrote they also don't use lampblack now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Any "waxed calf" being sold today is fundamentally a marketing pitch...just as "bullhide" is. Just as "mulehide" is. Horween makes a leather--ChromeXcel--that is supposed to replicate waxed calf but it is really a far cry from the original process and the "wax" is actually a solvent based lacquer rather than anything close to the original recipe.

Horween makes reversed Chromexcel which is called Huntsman.

http://horween.com/101/chromexcel-2/


http://horween.com/101/the-leather-that-has-3-names/


http://42nd.co.jp/collection/walker-gunn/11759.html


http://kippleland.jugem.jp/?day=20111218




Other photos:

John Lobb
http://www.centurion-magazine.com/sections/post/top-five-bespoke-riding-boots.html
http://www.centurion-magazine.com/uploads/pics/Boots_johnlobb_boots.jpg


Schnieder
http://therakeonline.com/atelier-luxury-designer-brands-artisans/blue-suede-shoes/
http://therakeonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/RS-Boots-11.jpeg


William Lennon's reverse tanned waxed kip butt leather
http://www.flickr.com/photos/smallwheelsociety/5534790203/in/photostream/



Ando's mountain boots made out of Eduard Gallusser's Gallo Juchten (a closed tannery)
http://www.ando-shoe.com/pulse1/7000gblk.htm

Edited by VegTan - 7/31/13 at 9:37pm
post #216 of 1312
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post

I have a pair of brown brogues which look like this (this is not a photo of them, the photo was posted a few weeks ago by Immagge).




Mine are made of very soft leather which is unevenly coloured and they do not have a shine of any sort. The leather is not particularly thick. They take both cream and wax well and are gradually developing a more even colour.  Because they are so soft and because they have a built in arch support, they are very comfortable. They were not expensive (c £110)

My question is, what sort of leather are they made of?  There has been a lot of talk on here about corrected leather but these don't seem to fit this category. Nor, obviously, are they very good quality leather. Any suggestions would be welcome.


That leather is unglazed burnishable calf and named Vegano by Annonay. Vegano is burnished/antiqued by shoemakers.

Vegano is softer than glazed leather because glazed leather becomes harder under heavy pressure.

Rusticalf (named by Annonay) is milled in a drum and softer than Vegano.
http://www.tannerie-annonay.fr/en/contenu-produits.htm

Quote:
http://www.leatherchemists.org/dictionary.asp

Glazed Finish: Produced by polishing grain surface under heavy pressure of a roller of agate, glass or steel. Infrequently made by a varnish or shellac coating.

Milling: A natural softening process in which leather is tumbled in a drum.



Glazing




Milling
http://www.bowleather.co.uk/bow/TheManufacturingProcess/Milling_2010.aspx


Alden's Vegano
http://sgrain3.exblog.jp/19245884/



Carmina's Rusticalf
http://www.carminashoemaker.com/web/hom/coleccion_modelo.php?lang=eng&dist=h&id_col=38&id_mod=237
post #217 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Actually, I asked about wearing patched shoes, now and in the past, for curiosity. I am among that, I suspect large, group of people who don't really care what strangers on the internet, who have never seen me, think of my clothes. But I am curious as to whether wearing patched shoes is as odd as some have suggested, very common, or somewhere in between. Also curious whether it was more common in the past.

I know very little about Prince Charles, and I targeted my remarks to him only because others had brought him up, and I could not see the problems with his shoes. Having had it pointed out, I SUPPOSE I can see what you are talking about, but I find it impossible to get exercised over what he, or anyone else, might choose to wear. I do find it interesting that he is mentioned on SF for being well dressed, but also here condemned for his "worn out" shoes. 

I am not hoping anyone will give me permission to wear worn out shoes. Remember, these are strangers on the internet, and I don't need their permission to  do anything.

But back to my statement, I have far lower standards for dress than a member of the royal family, I am never on TV, I do not appear at Court, and I have far less money than Prince Charles.  He is considered well dressed, old shoes and all. That implies that I can be considered dressed well enough for my purposes without bespoke suits or Lobb shoes.


Or am I missing something about these worn out shoes? Besides some finding them unappealing, are they dangerous to one's feet? More likely to result in foot injury or infection? Cold in the winter? Hot in the summer? Maintained with toxic chemicals? Otherwise, I have seen lots worse. Much worse in fact.

Admiration for him? Frankly, I am baffled by the UK support for the royal family. But it is a democracy, and the citizens there could end the financial support, reclaim the residences, etc if they wanted to. I gather the role of the royals is a political issue over there, but most seem content with the way things are. It would not fly in the US, but as a democracy, it is up to the people of the UK to decide how to deal with this legacy of their monarchy. Mildly interesting, but I really don't care. But he gets mentioned a lot on SF, so someone seems to care about him, or at least his clothes.

Tony Gaziano said that a lot of the upper class English folks he makes shoes for routinely get them patched. He also said that it is much less noticeable on black shoes, but that is largely all they wear anyway. He also said many people get their cracks patched, or mended.

I personally see nothing wrong with it if the rest of the shoes integrity is sound. Also, I would be more inclined to do it on either a bespoke shoe, or a shoe that is on the expensive side ~1k+ Getting C&J's patched seems like a waste of money as doing it right would cost some good money.

I am a fan of the patina of a good pair of shoes and I consider patches on good quality, comfortable shoes to just be the next stage in their life. I see it as a sign of cared for, well loved shoes. Member poorsod has patches on a ton of his shoes, all high end RTW and bespoke.

Also, what makes the Prince's shoes look rather bad is the choice of leather, weird polish job, and super low profile of the sole and heel. I don't know what is up with that, but the bespoke Lobb's I have seen don't resemble that at all. It is very odd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Pegging outsoles goes all the way back to Roman times. But esp. during the late 19th century ans esp. here in th estates, it was one of several means of outsoling a pair of shoes or boots.

Most American Civil War era boots, both for the military and for civilians, were pegged and cowboy boots which evolved post war and were heavily influenced by Officers boots, were pegged. to this day the Traditional way to deal with the waist on a cowboy boot is to peg it. In the waist and for the use, pegs have been shown to be more durable than stitching.

Do you have a picture of a peg before it is inserted? Also, is it literally hammering a pointy wooden nail through the outsole, through the uppers/lining, and into the insole?
post #218 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

But I am curious as to whether wearing patched shoes is as odd as some have suggested, very common, or somewhere in between. Also curious whether it was more common in the past.

If you ever go outside, you already know that it is very uncommon now. I have never ever seen it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

...and I could not see the problems with his shoes.

Did you ever look at them on a proper screen? I think the patches are actually less of a problem compared to the blotchy scaly crinkled leather elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

I do find it interesting that he is mentioned on SF for being well dressed, but also here condemned for his "worn out" shoes.

His suits are probably nice, I don't pay much attention. Maybe most of his shoes are nice. I only hold that those pictured are horrendous. He may have sentimental motives, that's fine. Still does not change that they look awful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

He is considered well dressed, old shoes and all. That implies that I can be considered dressed well enough for my purposes without bespoke suits or Lobb shoes.

This implies that you trust some arbiter, but it is amorphous. Also, someone can be generally well dressed, and make a mistake from time to time. Those shoes are a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Or am I missing something about these worn out shoes?

Makes me want to ask, again, if you have looked at the pictures in hi rez.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhdnhdbh View Post

Frankly, I am baffled by the UK support for the royal family.

Agreed, I don't understand how a populace in this day in age is satisfied with being relegated to a lower class, or to the indignity of being expected to call someone Sir or Your Highness because of their birth. So messed up.
post #219 of 1312
I'd love to believe that someone is actually producing classic Waxed Calf today. I like it even better if I had access and could purchase some for my own use.

That said...the Traditional process demands a very tight very firm leather. It also demands the aging of the leather and the finishing with some sort of sizing/wheat paste or something similar.

It's not just stuffing the leather with oils. Lots of leathers are hot stuffed. None of them transform into anything close to the Waxed Calf I have seen which is not oily or greasy despite the stuffing.

And I have personally talked to Skip Horween about Chromexel...the finish on the leather (as I said above) is a solvent based lacquer. Skip sent me a bottle to fill in the gaps/repair the finish on boots I was making...simply because you couldn't not just "bone it out".

What's the difference between finishing the flesh with a heavy paint and finishing the grain with a paint AKA "corrected grain leather"?
post #220 of 1312
[quote name="patrickBOOTH" url="/t/354137/leather-quality-and-properties/210#post_6505845"
Do you have a picture of a peg before it is inserted? Also, is it literally hammering a pointy wooden nail through the outsole, through the uppers/lining, and into the insole?[/quote]

The answer is "yes".




Osage orange pegging awl. (I made this)



--
Edited by DWFII - 8/1/13 at 8:22am
post #221 of 1312
Ever consider using Molly bolts? smile.gif
post #222 of 1312
[quote name="patrickBOOTH" url="/t/354137/leather-quality-and-properties/210#post_6505890"Ever consider using those expandable anchors that one might use on drywall? smile.gif[/quote]

Sure, when I'm hanging paintings. I'm walking on a van Gogh even as we speak...crackup[1].gif
post #223 of 1312

Vegtan, Thank you very much for your usual, detailed and informative answer to my question about a pair of shoes. My only wonder is that a pair of shoes around £110 can be made of what seems to be good leather. Thanks again.

post #224 of 1312

On this side of the pond, we don't live in half-timbered houses and we don't stand in awe of prince Charles. Unfortunately the royal family is not an institution that can be 'voted out'

 

I have never heard of the idea that Charles is 'well dressed'. He tends to favour old clothes, in much the same way as he appears to favour patched shoes. I suspect it has something to do with being aristocratic. Fortunately (as far as its possible to care about these things), his sons seem better dressed and I doubt that their shoes have, or will have patches. 

 

Oh, and just to clear it up, Charles is very rarely on TV and I'm not sure what it means to 'attend court'.

post #225 of 1312
He used to get his suits made up by Thomas Mahon, who is an excellent tailor, however he has been getting Turnbull & Asser MTM recently, supposedly. A lot of his combos are very tasteful, however I don't like that he buttons the bottom button on all of his DB suits.
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