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Leather Quality and Properties - Page 10

post #136 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munky View Post

I was just looking for the meaning of  "Lighten, a.k.a., sun bleached. Real patina". I understand the sun bit and the fact that it can age shoes. I'm not sure about the 'Real patina' bit. To me, it reads as though sun causes real patina - but from many responses on this page, the suggestion is that sun isn't particularly good for your shoes. 


It all sounds to me as though 'natural' exposure to sun can cause patination  but it is best not to let your shoes get too much sun. I'm still a bit confused.

Patina happens naturally, by oxidation and sun mostly. There are also patina created by usage. And then there are imitated patina by painting at different stages of production.

Lattanzi famously buried their shoes in an underground well with thick glass ceiling for years to achieve the natural effect.

On the men's poor imitations of patina, they could be done at different stages. At the leather dying, aka Ilcea Radica. Before shoemaking but after pattern cutting with dye. Or after shoemaking with either paint of cream.
post #137 of 1309

I find that a patina develops somehow if your polishing is done unevenly too. And that is just a matter of months.

post #138 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecstasy View Post

I find that a patina develops somehow if your polishing is done unevenly too. And that is just a matter of months.

 

A blotched polishing job is not acquired patina.  It's just applied patina and I can make that happen in a matter of days if not hours.  But whatever floats your boat.

post #139 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

 

A blotched polishing job is not acquired patina.  It's just applied patina and I can make that happen in a matter of days if not hours.  But whatever floats your boat.

 

True. However, natural patina is deterioration of leather.

 

When I think of patina, and when I recall that leather is actually skin, I shudder at the thought of my skin looking like that. It is like a sunburn and my skin starts peeling.

 

Scary.

post #140 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecstasy View Post

True. However, natural patina is deterioration of leather.

When I think of patina, and when I recall that leather is actually skin, I shudder at the thought of my skin looking like that. It is like a sunburn and my skin starts peeling.

Scary.

No, I don't think so. A natural patina is, as I said before, a combination of things--polish, finish, and wear, some of it additive some of it subtractive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Patina is more than just shading or fading or splotchiness. It is a predictable, non-destructive, and usually attractive aging of aniline dyed leather that results from use...in conjunction with regular maintenance, conditioning, polishing, and exposure to a multitude of environmental factors. Take away any of those factors and patination does not take place.

It's not necessarily a deterioration of the leather...that only happens when you try to accelerate the process.
post #141 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


No, I don't think so. A natural patina is, as I said before, a combination of things--polish, finish, and wear, some of it additive some of it subtractive.

Where do you place the line between the polishing that should take place as the last stage of production and "antiquing" (fake patination)? Should that be completely even, or is the very slight darkening of the toe that I often see on brown shoes something you'd consider acceptable?

 

Also, it may be perverse of me, but I like the "bad dye job" leathers. They remind me of '70s vinyl-bound books my grandparents had growing up.

post #142 of 1309
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by VegTan View Post

Here are shoes with so-called bronzed antique patina.

"The fading you see here, caused by half a century of sunlight, can be carefully replicated in our Workshop with a shorter waiting time!"


I know that no matter what they say they cannot duplicate a natural patina...


Here are an original and its replica. Foster gets a passing mark...??


http://cobblersweb.style.coocan.jp/bespoke/bespoke-shoemaker2/foster&son.htm



http://cobblersweb.style.coocan.jp/foster&son01/count100-top.htm
post #143 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecstasy View Post

True. However, natural patina is deterioration of leather.

When I think of patina, and when I recall that leather is actually skin, I shudder at the thought of my skin looking like that. It is like a sunburn and my skin starts peeling.

Scary.

Natural patina is acquired patina, the side effect of time and care. Sort of like a lady aging gracefully.

Painted on patina is applied patina, similar to small kids putting on make ups and or costumes and parents shoes to look mature.

Very different.

On the other hand, there are shoe painting artists that don't claim their work as "antiqued" or "patina" but painting artworks onto shoes that intentionally look nothing like a natural beauty.
post #144 of 1309
All 'patina' is an acquired sign of ageing in a given material. Some deteriorations are culturally desired, so they are given the fancy name 'patina', while others are not, so they are called 'dirt', 'stains', 'tarnish', 'discolouration', 'fading', etc. In a leather briefcase you may call the dirt and sweat rubbed into the handle and next to the locks 'patina' while a water stain is just that: a water stain (unless there are dozens and dozens of water stains acquired over decades, then it will be called patina.

Artists and craftsmen have used for centuries techniques to accelerate the speed and to have greater control of those inevitable effects of ageing. Copper roofs have been treated with acid to speed-up 'verdigris' which rain and pollutants would have caused anyhow. Artists have used coloured tints and varnished to mellow the colour of the paints used. Gilders have rubbed soot into the crevices of newly gilded decorations. August Rodin is supposed to have encouraged his assistants to urinate over finished bronze sculpture sitting in the back yard.

'Antique' finishes in leather are just the same. Whether or not you like the sponged effect of 'Museum calf' is just a question of preference and taste. In principle this finish is not different from marbleized paper or stucco marble (which was during the Baroque a more preferred and more expensive method than natural marble as it allowed the craftsman the absolute freedom of colour and swirls which the natural stone would not allow).
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Natural patina is acquired patina........Painted on patina is applied patina........Very different.

This division into 'good' and 'bad' patina is absurd. All patina is acquired, whether I use the long or the short route, whether it takes one hundred years or one hour.
post #145 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


Artists and craftsmen have used for centuries techniques to accelerate the speed and to have greater control of those inevitable effects of ageing. Copper roofs have been treated with acid to speed-up 'verdigris' which rain and pollutants would have caused anyhow. Artists have used coloured tints and varnished to mellow the colour of the paints used. Gilders have rubbed soot into the crevices of newly gilded decorations. August Rodin is supposed to have encouraged his assistants to urinate over finished bronze sculpture sitting in the back yard.

'Antique' finishes in leather are just the same. Whether or not you like the sponged effect of 'Museum calf' is just a question of preference and taste. In principle this finish is not different from marbleized paper or stucco marble (which was during the Baroque a more preferred and more expensive method than natural marble as it allowed the craftsman the absolute freedom of colour and swirls which the natural stone would not allow).
This division into 'good' and 'bad' patina is absurd. All patina is acquired, whether I use the long or the short route, whether it takes one hundred years or one hour.

^And this is just sophistry. It's tantamount to claiming that paint is a patina.

These are the very same techniques that counterfeiters and hoaxers use. It doesn't make them "patina." And no matter how it is achieved such "stains' never really replicate a natural patina.

If nothing else, the distinction can be found in the intent. Patina is honest--a product of honest use and care. "Antiquing" is an attempt to make something look like what it is not. And there's a lot of that in the leather Trade.

It's...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

studied sprezz, paying top dollars to look hobo, going bespoke to look worn.

...corrected grain leather pretending to be quality, GY marketed as excellence (or near-as-nevermind). Tofu turducken. You can always tell, simply because all these people and techniques aspire to be, and masquerade as, something they are not. It's all cut from the same cloth.

Applied patinas...in any form...are not only an oxymoron, they are, at bottom, a studied deception....as is the strained and specious attempts to legitimize them.

And just for the record...there's nothing wrong with antiquing. I'll antique shoes esp. gimped edges to accentuate those edges and those lines. But it is what it is--antiquing. It's not patina. Nor is it forced or destructive...as it would be if leather is left out in the sun.

--
Edited by DWFII - 7/27/13 at 7:00am
post #146 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Applied patinas...in any form...are not only an oxymoron, they are, at bottom, a studied deception....as is the strained and specious attempts to legitimize them.

You might want to tell this firm.............that you prefer 'honest' emulsion paint.

http://www.hvart.co.uk/
post #147 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

You might want to tell this firm.............that you prefer 'honest' emulsion paint.

http://www.hvart.co.uk/

Again with the sophistry...again with the posturing. Again with the misdirection.

I never said anything untoward about paint or plaster or any of the decorative arts.

I objected to the misuse of the word "patina."

I understand...you need to quibble...so you conflate paint with patina. And even when someone says clearly...explicitly, specifically...""Applied patinas..." you close your eyes to it. To read what is not, and never was, there.

I am a shoemaker...I have worked with leather for over 40 years...with my hands. I don't need to posture or present myself as something I am not. I know leather and I know shoes.

There's a lot of folks here who think that as long as they have access to Google...and can throw out a cite, a photo, or a link...they're de facto experts. What they don't understand is that, as with all such "applied patinas", it is easily (and quickly) spotted as deception.
post #148 of 1309
Wait just a minute now TOFU TURDUKEN ..............!!!!!!?????
post #149 of 1309
Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post

Wait just a minute now TOFU TURDUKEN ..............!!!!!!?????

fing02[1].gif

(the devil made me do it...decisions.gif)
post #150 of 1309

I write as someone who wants to learn about leather and about shoes. I have no claim to expertise (at least, not in this area). I do find the debate about patina an interesting one. My understanding, so far, is that all shoes, like a lot of other objects, develop a patina over time. This is not a good or a bad thing, just something that happens. However, for whatever reason, some people may want to appear to accelerate that process, through 'unnatural' means. Given that patina will develop over time, my best guess is that those people want to appear to speed up the the development  of patina do so because they want their shoes to look older than they are. A nice paradox occurs here. People are paying good money for new shoes-  ( 'these are my expensive new shoes'.)  However, some are happy to pay just as good money, -if not more - to buy shoes that are new but appear to be much older than they are ('these are my expensive old shoes'.).  While there is no limit to 'newness', there is a limit, presumably, to 'oldness'.  Few, I suspect would like to be wearing the oldest shoes possible. The person or company who develops 'false' patina does so within limits, even if self-determined limits. Again, presumably no one is going to buy shoes that seem to be worn out. 

 

Overall, I suppose, this is an argument for allowing shoes to age of their own accord. However, presumably anyone with the right money can order shoes that are in any state. Notice that shoes with  with accelerated patina are made that way with an aesthetic idea in mind. Shoes that develop a natural patina cannot be guaranteed to develop in such a way. However, as indicated above, many might prefer the 'natural aesthetics' of shoes allowed to patinate on their own.

 

puzzled.gif


Edited by Munky - 7/27/13 at 9:21am
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