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French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.) - Page 66

post #976 of 1740
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

^gambit50 - it's pretty hard to follow what you are trying to say, but also evident that you don't really understand what is going on at Cifonelli or anything about the brand. Sorry, but if you have no experience or knowledge maybe it's best to just stay out of the thread. Cifonelli has had RTW for years.

It is clear that your command of English is poor or you are completely dense and I know Cifo has RTW as I have worn it in the shop(oh, how they loved to stuff me into a jacket). The latter point is irrelevant to my rant, anyway. Yes, they have RTW but this new expansion is, obviously, going to be a new beast.
Also, if you want to get into a pissing contest the next time you care to say something so obnoxious and rude as 'stay out of the thread' please do so in person so I that I might put you in your proper place if that is how you want it to be. I do not claim to have some copy of the Cifo master plan but neither do you have one. However, I am far more well versed in these endeavors than you are and there are sweeping generalities that apply to similar situations. They all end up with results that may be cubbied into just a few holes.

Kuro, licensing in Japan as it is(not that I am familiar) would probably be what I would think their dedication would require if you are hoping they stay focused on the bespoke final products.
Perhaps set it up, initially, and let it ride. I would be surprised if they hired all of those people to merely do similar in more markets. It will be what it will be and the result will be determined. Not too much point in speculation, I was more commenting on what I deem fallacies as to how the situation helps certain consumers.
post #977 of 1740
^im not sure why you are taking it so personally. I'm just saying that you are ignorant and should stay out of the thread. It's good advice and should take it. As for meeting in person, I appreciate the offer but I think I'm going to pass. I don't think the in-person comparison would be particularly enjoyable for you.
post #978 of 1740
3 quick points:

1) Yes, the Cifo RTW expansion has outside backing, by private money not private equity;

2) Kering (PPR) claim to be leaving Brioni completely untouched -- I would love to hear outside objective confirmation that this is true. From personal experience with Kering, they appear to have a very hands-off approach to managing the luxury brands they acquire;

3) FWIW I can confirm that gambit50 has a very good knowledge level about the topics being discussed here, he's not a n00b at all. Gents, please refrain from killing this great thread with personal back and forth. People should agree to disagree and move on.
post #979 of 1740
Brioni was once a great bespoke house. How many of those customers survived the shift to RTW?
post #980 of 1740
Fair question. What is unquestionable though is that they have successfully morphed into a global RTW player without compromising on quality. To do that, they kept their RTW prices at the same level as that of a bespoke suit. It's one option.
post #981 of 1740

I don't think I'm blinded by my friendship with Cifonelli.


For many years, Massimo & Lorenzo was creating RTW taking time from bespoke operations. (flying to Pitti Uomo, selecting fabrics, making models)

They always carry RTW downstair in a small shop, with the same staff.

I don't think, they were making lot of money (maybe loosing some...)


For them, RTW is a step into their world. Maybe young customers can afford RTW suits, then maybe in the future they will discover bespoke.


I really think bespoke operation can be help by good vision in RTW.


Yes, I think visuals, ad campaigns, look books can help on the bespoke choice. In Bespoke, new customers can sometimes make weird choice.

Also the good coordination btw color of suit, shirt, and tie can be important.   



Nowdays in Paris, if you wanna be learning tailoring. It will cost you 10.000 euros for 2 years.

If you start a school, you're teaching the young tailors to create quality garments. 

You hire the best to your workshop. 


If you have enough cash, you can buy a beautiful building. This investment can avoid problems like Camps de Luca have with their building.


Cifonelli have RTW for years, now it's time to developp in a smart way. I hope they can do something beautiful. 


Yes, Cifonelli got a license with department store Isetan Mitsukoshi.  (I don't know about Hankyu)

On the 5th floor of Isetan men store, they create a "fabrics bar".


You choose your fabrics, you can choose in "house style" and it's produce in Japan.



Made to measure : on 5th floor, Belvest, Isaia, Cesare Attolini, Kiton, Brioni // on 4th floor, Richard Anderson, Liverano & Liverano, William Skinner

Order made "Made in Japan, Bespoke" : Huntsman, Cifonelli, Henry Poole

post #982 of 1740
sans prêt à porter

post #983 of 1740
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Brioni was once a great bespoke house. How many of those customers survived the shift to RTW?

Brioni led the export wave of Italian clothing postwar. Their first runway show at Pitti was in 1952. By the mid 1950s, their RTW was sold in dozens of American department stores coast to coast.

Re: CIfo doing RTW again, good luck to them.

The survival of the bespoke operation depends on how much time the proprietors reserve for it. it's a matter of management, organization, and ambitions.

In the past, many SR houses had licenses in the USA and/or Japan. The Japanese ones for Poole, etc, seemed to be pretty distant from SR. US licenses for G&H and KFS and Huntsman were similar. Intellectual rights holders held the reigns more loosely from the 60s until the 90s. Valentino, in his documentary longs for this time when the money just flowed in.

In current examples, a Norton customer could tell whether quality suffered post-Tautz, though the whole firm was transformed by Patrick Grant.

Elsewhere, Rubinacci clients could say whether it has changed since the re-launch of their RTW under Luca.

The larger issue from a brand management standpoint is, what of the brand identity can translate into RTW? A fit, a shoulder, a style of lapel, other? How do you build a line around it, season after season? Without a strong vision, it devolves into another bland global luxury brand, like Dunhill.

In the larger picture, if one famous house declines, another will rise so long as demand for the craft remains. As De Gaulle said, "the graveyards are full of indispensable men."
post #984 of 1740
Romain Le Dantec:

and don't remember this being posted before..

M. Marc de Luca:
post #985 of 1740
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

Romain Le Dantec:

and don't remember this being posted before..

M. Marc de Luca:

We might as well post the Diagne interview as well that belongs to the same series as that CdL itw:
post #986 of 1740
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

The words 'sur mesure' have come to be associated with MTM by force of MTM tailors abusing the term; too bad for Suzuki that he didn't print the words 'grande mesure' on his hangers, which is the appropriate term for the true bespoke that he creates.
post #987 of 1740
Dirnelli, if you care to share, I am interested in examples of labels that were damaged by offering RTW and ones that were enhanced (and reasons).
post #988 of 1740
Minus = Smalto -- they killed their brand by licensing cheap RTW, now they have to rebuild it IMO after having unwound that nefarious experiment.

Minus = Lanvin -- what is left of their former bespoke glory since they moved into fashiony RTW for the likes if Kayne West?

Plus = Cifo -- they gave good visibility to their bespoke operations by having a well-curated RTW storefront. Personally, I discovered them through the store, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Plus = Rubi & Attolini -- their RTW expansions probably put them on the map relative to their equally deserving neapolitan bespoke peers. How long before we see LVSN go RTW? I'll bet you anything we'll have LVSN RTW before long. The dude is ex-Kiton, he's got it figured out.

Also, without speaking of pure bespoke players, what about all the RTW players who started out with a true tailoring soul (e.g. Chester Barrie, Façonnable, Crémieux Silver Line), who then sent their brand into a tailspin as they got bigger? Too many examples there.
Edited by dirnelli - 6/17/14 at 12:45am
post #989 of 1740
Nice interview on PG with Delos:

He looks happy and healthy. I really enjoyed working with him, and happy to hear that he is still making. He is such a nice guy and a talented shoemaker.
post #990 of 1740
Anthony is the best... icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
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