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French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.) - Page 58

post #856 of 1429
Here's my two cents, for anybody who's considering making a first commission at one or the other, between Camps and Cifo:

If you're very classically minded, I think you might enjoy Camps more, but if you're more adventurous in your styling, you might enjoy Cifo more.

That just my personal impression based on many many conversations I've had with both, and it's my own personal reading of their personalities and strengths.

I'm not sure they would agree with my assessment, and each would argue that they are completely capable of handling commissions at either end of the spectrum.

However, the vibe that you get from each place is that Camps really makes a virtue/trademark out of classicism, while Cifo makes a virtue/trademark out of pushing the envelope.
post #857 of 1429
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post

Here's my two cents, for anybody who's considering making a first commission at one or the other, between Camps and Cifo:

If you're very classically minded, I think you might enjoy Camps more, but if you're more adventurous in your styling, you might enjoy Cifo more.

That just my personal impression based on many many conversations I've had with both, and it's my own personal reading of their personalities and strengths.

I'm not sure they would agree with my assessment, and each would argue that they are completely capable of handling commissions at either end of the spectrum.

However, the vibe that you get from each place is that Camps really makes a virtue/trademark out of classicism, while Cifo makes a virtue/trademark out of pushing the envelope.

I appreciate that because I am currently tossing up exactly that. I was planning to commission two Cifo jackets and one CDL but I have seen a coat at Loro Piana that has thrown the cat amongst the pigeons that will mean one jacket is probably sacrificed. At the moment I am thinking it's the CDL one.
post #858 of 1429
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

HighToned, do you have a full picture of the flannel herringbone coat? A peak lapeled SB is unexpected and I was wondering how the coat looks. Thanks.

 

Sorry Poorsod, it was Julien de Luca coat. I took pictures of details. 

When I put the jacket on the stockman. It's was too small, I couldn't close his jacket. 

 

It's funny because from what I see at CDL and Cifonelli.

Many of customers seems to have quiet original choices to French tailoring. Compare to that Savile Row is very business style. 

 

Lorenzo Cifonelli is the more open minded to creativity. I saw him wearing cargo pant or short, many funny details on his jackets.

post #859 of 1429
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighToned View Post

Sorry Poorsod, it was Julien de Luca coat. I took pictures of details. 
When I put the jacket on the stockman. It's was too small, I couldn't close his jacket. 

It's funny because from what I see at CDL and Cifonelli.
Many of customers seems to have quiet original choices to French tailoring. Compare to that Savile Row is very business style. 

Lorenzo Cifonelli is the more open minded to creativity. I saw him wearing cargo pant or short, many funny details on his jackets.

Then it is unfortunate that these customers miss out on real finesse. To my eye the best parts of the house appear when there are fewer flourishes to distract.

Some examples courtesy of Dirnelli

Cifonelli
http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/64594703607/for-sale-cifonelli-bespoke-donegal-tweed

tumblr_muzasb8JNG1rugtzko2_500.jpg

tumblr_muzasb8JNG1rugtzko1_500.jpg

tumblr_mwxa7kPynu1r2zz19o2_500.jpg


CdL
http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/78536287002/monthly-lunch-at-automobile-club-camps-de-luca

tumblr_n1wr40XEu21rugtzko1_500.jpg


Smalto

http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/76617506482/the-camps-de-luca-notch-lapel-which-later

tumblr_n0zarsjrIh1rugtzko3_500.jpg

tumblr_n0zarsjrIh1rugtzko1_500.jpg
post #860 of 1429

Different strokes, different folks .... especially if they're Russian  ; )

 

Poorsod, I completely agree with you. 

 

Wow this vintage Cifonelli tweed jacket !

post #861 of 1429
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighToned View Post

Different strokes, different folks .... especially if they're Russian  ; )

Poorsod, I completely agree with you. 

Wow this vintage Cifonelli tweed jacket !

biggrin.gif
post #862 of 1429
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

Then it is unfortunate that these customers miss out on real finesse. To my eye the best parts of the house appear when there are fewer flourishes to distract.

Some examples courtesy of Dirnelli

Cifonelli
http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/64594703607/for-sale-cifonelli-bespoke-donegal-tweed

tumblr_muzasb8JNG1rugtzko2_500.jpg

tumblr_muzasb8JNG1rugtzko1_500.jpg

tumblr_mwxa7kPynu1r2zz19o2_500.jpg


CdL
http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/78536287002/monthly-lunch-at-automobile-club-camps-de-luca

tumblr_n1wr40XEu21rugtzko1_500.jpg


Smalto

http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/76617506482/the-camps-de-luca-notch-lapel-which-later

tumblr_n0zarsjrIh1rugtzko3_500.jpg

tumblr_n0zarsjrIh1rugtzko1_500.jpg



Just superb..
post #863 of 1429

I heard a rumor about Camps de Luca got to move out because their building just got acquired by a foreign investment group.

 

Is it true ? 

post #864 of 1429
Yes, it's true, it was in the newspaper. Not that everything you read in the newspapers is true, but it happens to be in this case.
post #865 of 1429

Wow the landlord Qatar National Bank will create a luxury hotel project starting this year... That's sad !

 

It's gonna be hard for Camps de Luca to found such prestigious place like in Madeleine. 

post #866 of 1429
Their lease must date back to 1960, so when they move their rental charges will likely skyrocket. It'll be interesting to see how this gets carried over into the price of a suit.
post #867 of 1429
Crompton does Camps:

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2014/04/camps-de-luca-suit-paris.html#.U2HdJIkazCQ

This article is likely to trigger passionate debate, since it features Simon wearing a trial jacket, commonly used by Camps but vehemently disputed by tenants of the non-standardized pattern school of bespoke tailoring. The argument for is quite compelling: as mentioned in the article, it allows the tailor to get the jacket to fit just right from the start, reducing any risk of error. The argument against is also quite compelling: if you're going to pay bespoke prices, you kind of expect a pattern that is unique to your body, not a measuring process that involves a standardized form to which alterations are made, which can be too reminiscent of a made-to-measure process.

I like the fact that Simon's article doesn't come down on any side of this debate: I guess at the end of the day it's about what works for each tailor. In my case, the Camps process yielded one of the best fitting suits I've ever owned, and I only judge the final results -- I'm not too sentimental about how much labor is involved. I've always stated that I prefer something that is machine made that fits well to something that is handmade and ill-fitting. At the end of the day, how many bespoke customers are aware that there is often tiny fusing at certain very specific (impossible to detect) locations in many bespoke suits, such as the superior part of the notch lapel, to prevent deformation at the seam as the fabric slightly stretches through pressing and wear. I know it's shocking, but I have this information on very good authority from a bespoke tailor who will remain nameless. In other words, depending on the fabric, often bespoke tailors cannot prevent deformation from happening there without putting a tiny bit of fusing. So I ask, what is better? To have a fusing-free garment that may develop some slight collar deformation over time, or to have a bit of fusing that no one would even know about if I didn't mention it here, making the garment look crisp for its entire life? Of course, our Neapolitan friends have found the best possible out: get customers to accept that the best style is an imperfect style, in this way any tailoring approximations can be chalked up to the fact that it's the 'house style'. It works great to obfuscate most iGents -- until the day you wake-up and realize how many extra hours work must go in to making a suit that his spot perfect. I'm not saying the Neapolitans have found the perfect excuse for some of their tailoring laziness and shortcuts, but I'm kind of thinking it very loud. I know that the French bespoke tailors would back me up on this one.

Now, having said all this, I was recently disappointed that Camps is no longer willing to accomodate necessary jacket alterations due to my weight-loss, which I feel could be expected from a bespoke tailoring house. I'm well aware that my weight-loss is a real headache for most of my tailors, but at the end of the day, customer service is a big part of the equation. Lorenzo Cifonelli has cleverly stepped in to save the day, thus seizing the opportunity to score some points over the competition: upon hearing of my tailoring woe, he instantly offered to make the necessary alterations to my Camps suit. Massimo did that as well for me many years ago on my first Italian bespoke suit, which had a glitch that he instantly spotted, and which I hadn't even noticed. He just said: "leave it with us, we'll fix it for you." I've got to hand it to those guys, they really know how to pull all the right moves to win over the hearts and minds of customers. When you experience customer service like that, it's no surprise that they ended up having the biggest bespoke operation in Paris. You can sense that they're going to go all out for every customer, to win everybody over.
Edited by dirnelli - 4/30/14 at 11:27pm
post #868 of 1429
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Crompton does Camps:

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2014/04/camps-de-luca-suit-paris.html#.U2HdJIkazCQ

This article is likely to trigger passionate debate, since it features Simon wearing a trial jacket, commonly used by Camps but vehemently disputed by tenants of the non-standardized pattern school of bespoke tailoring. The argument for is quite compelling: as mentioned in the article, it allows the tailor to get the jacket to fit just right from the start, reducing any risk of error. The argument against is also quite compelling: if you're going to pay bespoke prices, you kind of expect a pattern that is unique to your body, not a measuring process that involves a standardized form to which alterations are made, which can be too reminiscent of a made-to-measure process.

I like the fact that Simon's article doesn't come down on any side of this debate: I guess at the end of the day it's about what works for each tailor. In my case, the Camps process yielded one of the best fitting suits I've ever owned, and I only judge the final results -- I'm not too sentimental about how much labor is involved. I've always stated that I prefer something that is machine made that fits well to something that is handmade and ill-fitting. At the end of the day, how many bespoke customers are aware that there is often tiny fusing at certain very specific (impossible to detect) locations in many bespoke suits, such as the superior part of the notch lapel, to prevent deformation at the seam as the fabric slightly stretches through pressing and wear. I know it's shocking, but I have this information on very good authority from a bespoke tailor who will remain nameless. In other words, depending on the fabric, often bespoke tailors cannot prevent deformation from happening there without putting a tiny bit of fusing. So I ask, what is better? To have a fusing-free garment that may develop some slight collar deformation over time, or to have a bit of fusing that no one would even know about if I didn't mention it here, making the garment look crisp for its entire life? Of course, our Neapolitan friends have found the best possible out: get customers to accept that the best style is an imperfect style, in this way any tailoring approximations can be chalked up to the fact that it's the 'house style'. It works great to obfuscate most iGents -- until the day you wake-up and realize how many extra hours work must go in to making a suit that his spot perfect. I'm not saying the Neapolitans have found the perfect excuse for some of their tailoring laziness and shortcuts, but I'm kind of thinking it very loud. I know that the French bespoke tailors would back me up on this one.

Now, having said all this, I was recently disappointed that Camps is no longer willing to accomodate necessary jacket alterations due to my weight-loss, which I feel could be expected from a bespoke tailoring house. I'm well aware that my weight-loss is a real headache for most of my tailors, but at the end of the day, customer service is a big part of the equation. Lorenzo Cifonelli has cleverly stepped in to save the day, thus seizing the opportunity to score some points over the competition: upon hearing of my tailoring woe, he instantly offered to make the necessary alterations to my Camps suit. Massimo did that as well for me many years ago on my first Italian bespoke suit, which had a glitch that he instantly spotted, and which I hadn't even noticed. He just said: "leave it with us, we'll fix it for you."
I've got to hand it to those guys, they really know how to pull all the right moves to win over the hearts and minds of customers. When you experience customer service like that, it's no surprise that they ended up having the biggest bespoke operation in Paris. You can sense that they're going to go all out for every customer, to win everybody over.

bigstar[1].gif
post #869 of 1429
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post

Now, having said all this, I was recently disappointed that Camps is no longer willing to accomodate necessary jacket alterations due to my weight-loss, which I feel could be expected from a bespoke tailoring house.

Well that totally sucks. I don't know if we're talking 15 pounds or 50, but if it's in the scope of "doable"...
post #870 of 1429
So CdL is refusing to alter one of their bespoke suits even though Cifo thinks the alterations are do-able? That is very surprising.
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