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French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.) - Page 41

post #601 of 1351
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Edited by Kuro - 2/28/14 at 9:28am
post #602 of 1351
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Edited by Kuro - 2/28/14 at 9:28am
post #603 of 1351
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Edited by Kuro - 2/28/14 at 9:28am
post #604 of 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuro View Post

Hi,

Apologies to all if this is slightly off topic for this thread, but how is Aubercy going to alter the fit of rtw shoes?
I've only heard the term fish mouth as well...

Not sure. They are going to go to a narrower last so I assume they will cut to fit it.
post #605 of 1351
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighToned View Post

This week, I went to Kenjiro Sukuzi, he showed me all the lapels he devellopped during his time at Smalto.
It was pretty impresive, he got around 150 shapes.

Do you know if he speaks English or is taking new clients? I'm planning to visit Paris again in a couple months and am thinking of dropping by. I'm tempted to order something but I'm not sure exactly how often I'll be in Paris.
post #606 of 1351
If you want Cifo's fishmouth style, it will be cut from a pattern of the Gonzales house cut, since Cifo bought out Gonzales and continues to serve his historical clients. You can still get Mr. Gonzales to make the suit himself for you, I believe he continues to serve a private clientele before he sets off into retirement soon. I also believe that a Gonzales suit costs less, TBC.

The Cifo SB lapel is more of a SR lounge suit notch lapel. Cifo's ancestor was trained on SR and Cifo to this day continues to work in inches rather than centimeters, the only Parisian house to do so.

Re Smalto, the extended lapel is more characteristic of their classic RTW model, in my pic. The Smalto bespoke lapel actually looks like this:

http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/69189404964/francesco-smalto-shows-you-how-to-do-the-parisian

A former Smalto bespoke tailor is offering the same cut for half as much, if memory serves:

http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/70201958390/guest-post-in-french-follower-benjamin-reviews
post #607 of 1351
Mafoofan -- the term 'regional eccentricity' used to describe the fishmouth is like calling the bavarian loden jacke a regional eccentricity -- i.e. it would only appear eccentric to foreigners, but for locals it's about as conservative as you can get.
post #608 of 1351
Fassbinder -- I suggest you post pics and a review of Mary Frittolini's bespoke shirts in this thread. Now that she is based in Paris, we can consider her relevant to the French thread rather than posting it in an Italian thread. Plus, she was trained by the dude from Lanvin who's name I always forget.

Here are my reviews of 2 other bespoke shirtmakers in Paris, Lucca and Courtot, who are in the 250€ range, whereas Mary is >300€:

http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/49585372725/review-of-shirtmakers-shirts-ive-owned
post #609 of 1351
I wrote a short review of Mary Frittolini's shirts a few months ago: http://bespokeetc.blogspot.ru/2013/08/blog-post.html (yeah, I know -- the text is in Russian, but pictures speak on universal language).

Also, a couple of pics of my finished shirt:

lp6f.jpg

7fa5.jpg

As can be seen, buttonholes are sown by hand. Buttons also attached by hand; and the monogram, of course, hand-made as well. Machine-made seams are incredibly tiny and neat. Collars and cuffs are fused.

Andrey
post #610 of 1351
Mafoofan, I don't believe the fishmouth lapel is part of the current Cifonelli signature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post

Fassbinder -- I suggest you post pics and a review of Mary Frittolini's bespoke shirts in this thread. Now that she is based in Paris, we can consider her relevant to the French thread rather than posting it in an Italian thread. Plus, she was trained by the dude from Lanvin who's name I always forget.

Here are my reviews of 2 other bespoke shirtmakers in Paris, Lucca and Courtot, who are in the 250€ range, whereas Mary is >300€:

http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/49585372725/review-of-shirtmakers-shirts-ive-owned

I started a thread about her a few months ago : http://www.styleforum.net/t/300803/la-camicia-con-lanima-mary-frittolini-bespoke-shirts
post #611 of 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighToned View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romain View Post

Hi Dirnelli, I believe it is actually called a fishmouth lapel wink.gif


You can see many variations of this kind of lapel here, from C to H (french text, sorry): http://stiff-collar.com/2012/05/28/les-revers-parisiens/
This week, I went to Kenjiro Sukuzi, he showed me all the lapels he devellopped during his time at Smalto.
It was pretty impresive, he got around 150 shapes.
Sounds impressive indeed! I would love to see that, because I am not a fan of some of his lapels (from what I saw on his facebook page).
post #612 of 1351
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post

Mafoofan -- the term 'regional eccentricity' used to describe the fishmouth is like calling the bavarian loden jacke a regional eccentricity -- i.e. it would only appear eccentric to foreigners, but for locals it's about as conservative as you can get.

It's not an insult. Cordovan longwings are an American eccentricity and shirt-set jackets sleeves are a southern Italian eccentricity. Those are broad generalities, but for expedience, I'm sure you get the idea.

The notion is simply that certain styles of things, such as the loden jacket you mention, are organic and particular to certain cultures. To my mind, it is actually very important that one distinguish such eccentricities, as doing do so allows us to maintain authenticity in our clothing. The false conceit of today's trend and consumption-driven menswear universe is that one can pick and choose the fashionable features he likes (spalla camicia, for example) and employ without discretion. I would not ask my tailor to make a fishmouth lapel because I understand it is not part of his tradition. The resulting garment would be a mutt of sorts. In contrast, I would not ask Cifonelli or Camps not to make me a fishmouth lapel. I wouldn't want a double kidney grille on a Benz. No ketchup on my ramen.

Anyway, to reiterate, I think the fishmouth is a very charming feature, but that is very much to do with the fact it is a regional eccentricity. Other tailors in other places don't generally do it.
post #613 of 1351
Not to worry, I was not insulted. The word regional is indeed relevant, and fishmouth is indeed a regionalism. I was reacting more to the use of the term 'eccentricity'. Strictly speaking, eccentricity refers to something that deviates from an established center. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?rd=1&word=eccentricity) I think we would all agree that, given the diversity of tailoring traditions, no country can lay claim to being the center, or a reference point against which all other styles are benchmarked. I am merely saying this because many americans I chat with online are thrown by the French style, which appears so new & different to them -- often they can't decide whether they like it or not.
The French style has never been popularized globally. That's why this thread is so important to me: I feel like half of #menswear has missed out on the French thing altogether (aside from SeamasterLux and I, and the odd pic from Vox, how many Tumblr's out there promote the French style?)
The French have really fallen down on the job of defending and promoting their tailoring tradition globally, compared to SR and the Italians. It's a shame, as this thread does demonstrate that the French master tailors largely warrant a seat at the table in the global #menswear conversation. Of course, connaisseurs like yourself and other posters on this thread alteady do know and appreciate the French tradition. I just wish it to be more widely appreciated within #menswear, so I'm always a bit concerned when people use a word like 'eccentric' to describe it, because it's not very flattering to call it that. Regional yes, eccentric no. Just my $0.02.
post #614 of 1351
PS. Fishmouth when commissioning a Camps, yes. But I would advise against it when commissioning a Cifo, as that's not their house cut. Within the French tradition, Cifo is sort of an exception -- they have their own style which is not a heritage of the traditional French style but instead points back to both SR and Italy.
post #615 of 1351
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Edited by Kuro - 2/28/14 at 9:29am
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