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French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.) - Page 32

post #466 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamasterLux View Post
 

 

That's interesting. You consider that Rubinacci has better workmanship than Cifonelli? 

What makes you say that? In terms of finishing details, I don't see anyone in the league of Cifonelli apart from Camps de Luca. Now for the structuring of the jacket, I also think that Cifonelli is outstanding. I'm very keen of getting your impressions.

 

He was comparing Rubinacci to NSM, using Cifonelli's customer service as a reference to what Rubinacci will provide for their customers and also stated that Rubinacci's workmanship is superior than NSM's.

post #467 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor Elfo View Post
 

 

He was comparing Rubinacci to NSM, using Cifonelli's customer service as a reference to what Rubinacci will provide for their customers and also stated that Rubinacci's workmanship is superior than NSM's.

 

My bad! That will teach me to read SF while tanning under a 90°F sun in Thailand.

post #468 of 1038
^^^ Ah, c'mon, I am sure you are slathered in SPF 50.
Plus, 90F is not so hot.
post #469 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by gambit50 View Post

^^^ Ah, c'mon, I am sure you are slathered in SPF 50.
Plus, 90F is not so hot.

 

SPF 30 actually :-)

 

Joke apart, I was wearing yesterday a bespoke Richard James sportcoat and a 60-year old man came up to me at dinner to tell me that he liked very much jackets made on the Row 

post #470 of 1038
Completely off topic, how's Richard James bespoke pricing these days? Still got the shanghai bespoke option?
post #471 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post

Completely off topic, how's Richard James bespoke pricing these days? Still got the shanghai bespoke option?

 

Roughly 3000 GBP excl. VAT but you get a 10% discount if you pay in full upfront. This price is for a two-piece suit.

 

I don't know anything about the Shanghai bespoke option.

post #472 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamasterLux View Post

Roughly 3000 GBP excl. VAT but you get a 10% discount if you pay in full upfront. This price is for a two-piece suit.

I don't know anything about the Shanghai bespoke option.

Only that???

Must be more than the £3600 mark now..
post #473 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbar View Post

Only that???

Must be more than the £3600 mark now..


On the FAQ of its website, RJ quotes 3100 GBP excl. VAT and the 10% option, 3500 for a 3-piece
post #474 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeamasterLux View Post

On the FAQ of its website, RJ quotes 3100 GBP excl. VAT and the 10% option, 3500 for a 3-piece

Which website are you talking about???
post #475 of 1038
http://www.richardjames.co.uk/faq-bespoke.html
post #476 of 1038

There's something of a hidden value in bespoke.  A Samuelsohn suit takes 6 hours to make and costs about $1200.  So it costs $200/hr.  A Camps de Luca takes 70 hours to make and costs about $8800.  That works out to $125/hr.  So despite being much more skill and labor intensive to make, you're paying less per hour for the most expensive hand made bespoke suit than for a machine made suit that's widely (and rightly) seen as being a very good value.  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if bespoke tailors have lower profit margins than RTW makers, which could explain why some of the best tailors are drawn into the RTW industry with higher salaries.  Of course, $8800 is a lot of money, and there are less expensive tailors that are excellent, but what I'm suggesting is that RTW may be more expensive and bespoke a better value in a way that's often overlooked.  At least, that's one new rationale to run by the wife.

post #477 of 1038
+1
I've often thought the same thing about bespoke tailor's profit margin being low. It's enough to witness the lifestyle of tailors who do only bespoke versus that of tailors who launched a RTW operation -- the visible affluence it speaks for itsellf.

And now brace yourselves:

Marc de Luca pointed out to me that tailors have been notoriously bad about defending their pricing. He says that throughout history, bespoke suits have usually cost 3 times more than bespoke shoes. In recent years, bootmakers have increased prices but tailors have not followed suit (no pun intended). In his view, given the demand, there should be ample room for tailors to increase prices to return to the old ratio of 3:1 versus bespoke shoes. Given that a pair of bespoke shoes is in the 3000-5500€ range today, that would suggest that Camps de Luca et al. are a really good deal todayvcompared to what their prices could look like if they were to increase them in the coming years to return to the old 3:1 ratio -- imagine a world in which bespoke suits cost north of 10.000€!!!! The horror, the horror...
post #478 of 1038
Eh I mean...I enjoy bespoke as much as anybody but 1) there are diminishing returns to labor on a given suit 2) I don't really care how many hours go into it. The tailor can do jumping jacks in front of my suit for 40 hours and call it "work", it's not going to make me any happier with the suit. If you're convincing yourself that you're getting a great bargain on tailor-hours by paying 6k euros for a suit...you are almost certainly a Styleforum member talking to other members or your wife. If you want it and can afford it, just buy it. There's no reason to try and justify based on the tailor's cost or how relative prices today compare to historical averages. While bespoke suits may currently be cheaper relative to bespoke shoes than they have been historically, they're also more expensive relative to most other things.
post #479 of 1038
One of the reasons I've curbed my bespoke habit is that I find it harder and harder to justify the expense to myself compared to how I could use the money more productively elsewhere. The self-indulgence of going bespoke has sent one too many pangs of guilt up to my cortex.

Sorry if I"m putting a downer on this thread, where people probably come looking for an aspirational fix on the most luxurious suits in the world.

Having myself gone through the whole cycle, I now recommend the cheaper thrill of thrifting bespoke -- it's a great sartorial buzz, and it keeps one's wife at bay.
post #480 of 1038
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post
imagine a world in which bespoke suits cost north of 10.000€!!!! The horror, the horror...

 

We're closer to that day than we think.  The price of bespoke suits rises faster than inflation (just like the expense of college tuition) because of Baumol's cost disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol's_cost_disease).  The 1996 edition of Flusser's Style and the Man says an A&S suit cost $2000 ($2930 in inflation adjusted dollars). Today that suit is over $5000 excluding VAT.  A. Caraceni suits were $2600 ($3800 inflation adjusted) and Cifonelli $3800 ($5560).  Now A. Caraceni is over $6400 and Cifonelli more than $6700.  So if you're thinking of getting suits, perhaps it's better to get them now than later.  Or you might invest in a time machine and take advantage of the arbitrage opportunities.


Edited by CrimsonSox - 2/5/14 at 1:40am
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