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French Tailoring Thread (e.g. Camps de Luca, Cifonelli, Smalto and etc.) - Page 11

post #151 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

People from the gulf on vacation spend in KL not HK.

Where did you get the information that people from the Gulf (presumably those who will use CdL) do a lot of holidaying in KL? Though I don't disagree that HK might not be a good location for CdL to venture into -- mainly because there are far too many tailors there and rent is expensive like I noted in my previous comment.
Edited by bboysdontcryy - 5/23/13 at 1:11pm
post #152 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

People from the gulf on vacation spend in KL not HK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

Where did you get the information that Gulf princes do a lot of holidaying in KL? Though I don't disagree that HK is not a good location for CdL to venture into -- mainly because there are far too many tailors there.

I think Hong Kong is a saturated market for bespoke suiting in general. Over priced land, tough competition, Ethos in Hong Kong all negates the necessity of another high end tailor, who focus on the product and not the brand.

Imagine all the ultra rich seeks to buy their bespoke suit like LV bags, cuh will be the doom for us.

The best long term goal for business is always to explore and develop a new market. I find quantity orientated business model rarely work on tailoring. The best is usually the referral sales.
post #153 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

People from the gulf on vacation spend in KL not HK.

Also, if you note the 'target audience' of CdL, Julien De Luca stated that '[t]he target is not to make suits here. At the moment, we have 20 clients in Southeast Asia and Hong Kong, but we project our main business to be in Asia'.

If Gulf clients were whom they were targeting, they should have just had a satellite outfit in one of the Gulf States.

It seems that the target is the Asia market, and that their existing clients hail from SEA.

Some statistics (courtesy of Wikipedia)

Kuala Lumpur
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The average monthly household income for Kuala Lumpur was RM4,105 (USD 1,324) in 1999, up from RM3,371 (USD 1,087) four years prior, making it 66% higher than the national average.[52] In terms of household income distribution, 23.5% of households in the city earned more than RM5,000 (USD 1,613) per month compared to 9.8% for the entire country, while 8.1% earned less than RM1,000 (USD 323) a month.

The large service sector is evident in the number of local and foreign banks and insurance companies operating in the city. Kuala Lumpur is poised to become the global Islamic Financing hub[53] with an increasing number of financial institutions providing Islamic Financing and the strong presence of Gulf's financial institutions such as the world's largest Islamic bank, Al-Rajhi Bank[54] and Kuwait Finance House. Apart from that, the Dow Jones & Company is keen to work with Bursa Malaysia to set up Islamic Exchange Trade Funds (ETFs), which would help raise Malaysia's profile in the Gulf.[55] The city has a large number of foreign corporations and is also host to many multi national companies’ regional offices or support centres, particularly for finance and accounting, and information technology functions. Most of the countries’ largest companies have their headquarters based here and as of December 2007 and excluding Petronas, there are 14 companies that are listed in Forbes 2000 based in Kuala Lumpur.

Singapore
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Singapore has the world's highest percentage of millionaires, with one out of every six households having at least one million US dollars in disposable wealth. This excludes property, businesses, and luxury goods, which if included would further increase the number of millionaires, especially as property in Singapore is among the world's most expensive.[90] Despite its relative economic success, Singapore does not have a minimum wage, believing that it would lower its competitiveness. It also has one of the highest income inequality levels among developed countries, coming in just behind Hong Kong and in front of the United States.

Singapore is the 14th largest exporter and the 15th largest importer in the world. The country has the highest trade-to-GDP ratio in the world at 407.9 percent, signifying the importance of trade to its economy. The country is currently the only Asian country to have AAA credit ratings from all three major credit rating agencies – Standard & Poor's, Moody's, and Fitch.[63][64] Singapore attracts a large amount of foreign direct investment as a result of its location, corruption-free environment, skilled workforce, low tax rates and advanced infrastructure. There are more than 7,000 multinational corporations from the United States, Japan, and Europe in Singapore. There are also 1,500 companies from China and 1,500 from India. Foreign firms are found in almost all sectors of the economy.[7] Singapore is also the second largest foreign investor in India.[65] Roughly 44 percent of the Singaporean workforce is made up of non-Singaporeans.[66] Over ten free trade agreements have been signed with other countries and regions.[67]

The Singaporean economy depends heavily on exports and refining imported goods, especially in manufacturing,[71] which constituted 27.2% of GDP in 2010[7] and includes significant electronics, petroleum refining, chemicals, mechanical engineering and biomedical sciences sectors. In 2006 Singapore produced about 10% of the world's foundry wafer output.[72] Despite its small size, Singapore has a diversified economy, a strategy that the government considers vital for growth and stability.[73]

Tourism also forms a large part of the economy, and 10.2 million tourists visited the country in 2007.

Edited by bboysdontcryy - 5/23/13 at 1:28pm
post #154 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

Also, if you note the 'target audience' of CdL, Julien De Luca stated that '[t]he target is not to make suits here. At the moment, we have 20 clients in Southeast Asia and Hong Kong, but we project our main business to be in Asia'.

If Gulf clients were whom they were targeting, they should have just had an outfit in one of the Gulf States.

It seems that the target is the Asia market, and that their existing clients hail from SEA.

You are far too detailed obssessed. You may miss out the bigger picture.

btw, I think it is a strength, certainly not a weakness.
post #155 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by add911_11 View Post

You are far too detailed obssessed. You may miss out the bigger picture.

btw, I think it is a strength, certainly not a weakness.

What do you mean? What's the bigger picture?
post #156 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

What do you mean? What's the bigger picture?

Business decission doesn't always follow the obvious choice.
post #157 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

What do you mean? What's the bigger picture?

KL gives access to both local and regional market and those gulf people vacationing or honeymooning there + it's probably some sort of test market and not over saturated with bespoke operations although doing quite well when it comes to luxury shopping.

FYI: they go there cause it's exotic but Muslim and the high-end shopping is a nice touch. If you go to the Ritz to have tea or something you'll be surrounded by girls in full face veil (light fabric though) and their new husband wearing shorts, flipflops a polo and some LV sunglasses or whatever.
post #158 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

KL gives access to both local and regional market and those gulf people vacationing or honeymooning there + it's probably some sort of test market and not over saturated with bespoke operations although doing quite well when it comes to luxury shopping.

FYI: they go there cause it's exotic but Muslim and the high-end shopping is a nice touch. If you go to the Ritz to have tea or something you'll be surrounded by girls in full face veil (light fabric though) and their new husband wearing shorts, flipflops a polo and some LV sunglasses or whatever.

I agree that a saturated market is something to be concerned over and should be considered. So let's leave HK out of the picture for the time being. Take a look at the stats I posted in the spoilers in my comment above.

Wikipedia writes that 'The average monthly household income for Kuala Lumpur was RM4,105 (USD 1,324) in 1999, up from RM3,371 (USD 1,087) four years prior, making it 66% higher than the national average'.

Now, compare that with what is written about Singapore: 'Singapore has the world's highest percentage of millionaires, with one out of every six households having at least one million US dollars in disposable wealth. This excludes property, businesses, and luxury goods, which if included would further increase the number of millionaires, especially as property in Singapore is among the world's most expensive.'

On Singapore's wealthy.

Rank of countries according to GDP per capita, derived from purchasing power parity.

Based on those stats, it'd seem that the domestic market in KL is near to zilch, and that Singapore would be ripe for the plucking. It's easy to assume that just because clothing hobbyists like us will travel for clothing, others will do too. The truth of the matter is that people who travel mainly to visit tailors are few and far between.

I don't know if people from the Gulf states (and who would use CdL) visit KL often. But what I do know is that a lot of sheiks, emirs, and people from that region visit London, Paris very often, so much so they buy up huge chunks of property here, and roar about in their Lamborghinis and Ferraris.
Edited by bboysdontcryy - 5/23/13 at 3:11pm
post #159 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuuma View Post

KL gives access to both local and regional market and those gulf people vacationing or honeymooning there + it's probably some sort of test market and not over saturated with bespoke operations although doing quite well when it comes to luxury shopping.

FYI: they go there cause it's exotic but Muslim and the high-end shopping is a nice touch. If you go to the Ritz to have tea or something you'll be surrounded by girls in full face veil (light fabric though) and their new husband wearing shorts, flipflops a polo and some LV sunglasses or whatever.

Interesting to know that, so how about Indonesia then, still too poor?
post #160 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

I agree that a saturated market is something to be concerned over and should be considered. So let's leave HK out of the picture for the time being. Take a look at the stats I posted in the spoilers in my comment above.

Wikipedia writes that 'The average monthly household income for Kuala Lumpur was RM4,105 (USD 1,324) in 1999, up from RM3,371 (USD 1,087) four years prior, making it 66% higher than the national average'.

Now, compare that with what is written about Singapore: 'Singapore has the world's highest percentage of millionaires, with one out of every six households having at least one million US dollars in disposable wealth. This excludes property, businesses, and luxury goods, which if included would further increase the number of millionaires, especially as property in Singapore is among the world's most expensive.'

Based on those stats, it'd seem that the domestic market in KL is near to zilch. It's easy to assume that just because clothing hobbyists like us will travel for clothing, others will do too. The truth of the matter is that people who travel mainly to visit tailors are few and far between.

I don't know if people from the Gulf states (and who would use CdL) visit KL often. But what I do know is that a lot of sheiks, emirs, and people from that region visit London, Paris very often, so much so they buy up huge chunks of property here, and roar about in their Lamborghinis and Ferraris.

Look, I know what I am talking about, you know how to use wikipedia. Just listen to what I say and don't come back with your 5 mins of google search as an argument.

-Singapore is right by
-Many Gulf people visit cause it's Muslim, I mean MANY.
-You don't need the average salary to be high, you need really rich people to be rich AND to be into that type of luxury, CdL probably sells more to Moroccans than French people, I mean he probably has like 5 french clients. The royals in KL go out to stupid clubs with matte black Ferraris, they might be more easily converted to tailoring than their LV loving rich peeps of HK, not that CdL doesn't expect to sell to both. I'm assuming they made that judgment call though
-It's a flight away from many places they prob also target
-It has three major SE cultures

In other words KL is often overlooked but it is very modern with a lot of rich people either living there or passing by, a stronger tie to British tradition, more trad royalty than in China or HK, Muslims along Buddhists along Hindi (so diff culture of SE asia are there in large number).
-It's not saturated
It is possibly a test market
post #161 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post

Interesting to know that, so how about Indonesia then, still too poor?

My understanding would be that:

1) Still too poor
2) Their elites seem to be de-suited or not to care too much, I mean those I've seen had awful suits smile.gif
3) Main city is a fucking urban nightmare, you gonna sell to Australian tourists in Bali?
4) Not as many of these Gulf honeymooners
5) Further away
post #162 of 1151
You're hung up on the idea that CdL moved to KL in large part to target Gulf tourists -- assuming that's the case, then why not open a satellite bespoke outfit in one of the Gulf States? Also, the pertinent question is what % of tourists from the Gulf are likely to want to visit KL to use such a niche tailor like CdL? This isn't Savile Row or Naples you're talking about. KL doesn't have a rich tailoring tradition that is a tourism draw in its own right. It's far more likely that wealthy Gulf nationals would visit Paris/London to bespeak suits if they're going to use such a niche brand.

Yes, you're going to say KL is good because of its local and regional market. I just pulled out examples indicating a low mean income, negating the allure of KL as a domestic market, and you say that you just need the top XX% to be really wealthy. True, and I agree. Well, 1/6 Singaporeans are millionaires. Singapore is known as a playground of the rich. Surely there's more of a domestic market in Singapore than in KL for example? So why not Singapore? Heck, I think Brunei would be a better call, given its wealth and that it's Muslim, and also, has your Gulf state vacationer.

Also, I don't see why the wealthy Chinese won't be converted to tailoring any more than wealthy Gulf tourists will be. Look at how the HK market (and Chinese from Mainland China) have taken to Liverano and other Western brands brought in by The Armoury.

Not sure why you bring up this bit about Moroccans since we're on the topic of Gulf States.

*Btw, not to rub it into your face, but I've probably spent more time in Asia (Singapore, KL, Hong Kong) than you have.

Edit:

Not long ago the British footwear brand George Cleverley took its wares to Singapore for a trunk show. It was a test-the-waters experiment, since the south-east Asian city-state is not a centre for bespoke shoe-wearers (locals tend to favour easy-on slippers). The Cleverley crew rented a hotel suite and stacked it with whisky and multi-thousand-pound, Goodyear-welted shoes made from exotic skins. Clients came to stare and sip. And then something unexpected happened: Cleverley sold more shoes in one day at that trunk show than on any other day in its 53-year history.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e206ebf6-2cb6-11e1-aaf5-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2U9Xj4aWL
Edited by bboysdontcryy - 5/23/13 at 3:12pm
post #163 of 1151

The notion that CdL is setting up a KL outpost to cater to Gulf tourists visiting the city is absurd. And yes, I am very familiar with KL.

 

As to the notion that KL has a lot of uber-rich people, that holds true for every major Asian city. So why set up in KL rather than Bombay, Shanghai, etc. (where the millionaires are both more numerous and richer)?

 

My take is that CdL ran into a local KL partner who is willing to bankroll the majority of the fixed costs in exchange for marketing + a promise of frequent visits from the CdL team. So, it ends up being a low-risk proposition for CdL. It's also important to note that they're hardly opening up a big, expensive freestanding store in KL.

post #164 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by bboysdontcryy View Post

You're hung up on the idea that CdL moved to KL in large part to target Gulf tourists -- assuming that's the case, then why not open a satellite bespoke outfit in one of the Gulf States? Also, the pertinent question is what % of tourists from the Gulf are likely to want to visit KL to use such a niche tailor like CdL? This isn't Savile Row or Naples you're talking about. KL doesn't have a rich tailoring tradition that is a tourism draw in its own right. It's far more likely that wealthy Gulf nationals would visit Paris/London to bespeak suits.

Not sure why you bring up this bit about Moroccans since we're on the topic of Gulf States.

Yes, you're going to say KL is good for local and regional market. I just pulled out examples indicating a low mean income, negating the allure of KL as a domestic market, and you say that you just need the top XX% to be really wealthy. True. Well, 1/6 Singaporeans are millionaires. Surely there's more of a domestic market in Singapore than in KL for example? So why not Singapore?

Also, I don't see why the wealthy Chinese won't be converted to tailoring any more than wealthy Gulf tourists will be. Look at how the HK market (and Chinese from China) have taken to Liverano and other Western brands brought in by The Armoury.

This is the last time I will address you on the topic as it is getting tedious answering the same thing over and over. Keep in mind that I am not privy to CdL's strategy.
1) I used Moroccans as an example because the country is much poorer than France but probably has more people (or at least more in proportion to the total pop) shopping for bespoke at the big Parisian houses, including their King. Once again your stat thing doesn't tell us all that much about what the rich do and this is culturally determined.
2) KL has three distinct communities that compose it: Chinese, Indian and Malays. This might be a better testing ground for SE Asia than the very homogenous Singapore.
3) Singapore is right by, they’ll probably do visits in plenty of country in the area and KL is well located for that. This is beside the point as I dunno if French people will move there but Singapore is like the antithesis of French culture and makes me want to throw my cigarette butts in people’s faces, I don’t think 95% of French Nationals could last more than 3 days there without going ballistic. This isn’t a point against Singapore, just pointing out cultural differences…
4) KL has some sort of shopping mall that won “world greatest shopping mall” at some point, build by Kuwaitis. They’re down with the luxury shopping and, yes, those Gulf people spend a lot there, it’s right by luxury hotels so I don’t doubt if CdL is near Hermès or whatever that they’ll get clients that way.
5) CdL might have judged that KL’s elite would be more susceptible than their neighbors to go for bespoke rather than flashy brands.
6) Costs might be lower in KL and they might want to minimize them at first
7) Maybe someone at CdL has a cousin over there or likes the place or whatever, most business decisions are taken for reasons that have nothing to do with rational analysis, familiarity being top.
post #165 of 1151
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley View Post

The notion that CdL is setting up a KL outpost to cater to Gulf tourists visiting the city is absurd. And yes, I am very familiar with KL.

As to the notion that KL has a lot of uber-rich people, that holds true for every major Asian city. So why set up in KL rather than Bombay, Shanghai, etc. (where the millionaires are both more numerous and richer)?

My take is that CdL ran into a local KL partner who is willing to bankroll the majority of the fixed costs in exchange for marketing + a promise of frequent visits from the CdL team. So, it ends up being a low-risk proposition for CdL. It's also important to note that they're hardly opening up a big, expensive freestanding store in KL.

I think it's a combination of factors, this being one. If it was the most important factor they'd set shop in Dubai or London (or Paris, oh wait!).
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