The 2007 NBA Playoffs

Originally Posted by Southern-Nupe

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As far as the East goes, I love the Bulls, I just hope they don't give away too much in a trade.

I don't envy Pax; with all those cards, what do you give up? You know that everyone wants Deng.

Originally Posted by chronoaug

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Please, you can't look at everything in hindsight like that. There is no way to tell what darko could've been either. Larry Brown completely broke down darko and rebuilt him into a defensive low post grinder. He used to have some good perimeter skills and was pretty aggressive. Now he's afraid of everything. If you say that you thought wade was going to become a top 5 2guard in the nba you're lying. Wade was hardly a guarantee that people pretend like he was nowadays. There are a million tweeners coming out of college who can't play point in the nba but are going to have a slightly harder time scoring and playing D against nba 2guards. Darko in the top 3 was pretty much a lock for most all NBA GMs at that point. I still say you can't look at the way darko's career panned out and say "told you so" because i really believe that larry brown pretty much ruined a lot of his potential. He was a high risk high reward player. He could've turned into one of the best players in the nba with his skills and game, larry brown made him bulk up and camp out in the paint so now he's more of a role player, but he just turned 22 and is turning into a pretty solid player with the potential to be a good starter but probably not an all star.

Carmelo Anthony at the two was an absolute no brainer, more so than Durant at #2 this year IMO. Taking Milicic at #2 (and paying a buyout to do it!) would have been like Seattle taking Spencer Hawes #2 this year, with everyone wondering WTF!

I'm ok with Detroit not taking Bosh or Wade at #2 overall because they have players in that mold anyways, but passing on Anthony was unforgivable and I'm not even a Pistons fan.

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

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Carmelo Anthony at the two was an absolute no brainer, more so than Durant at #2 this year IMO. Taking Milicic at #2 (and paying a buyout to do it!) would have been like Seattle taking Spencer Hawes #2 this year, with everyone wondering WTF! I'm ok with Detroit not taking Bosh or Wade at #2 overall because they have players in that mold anyways, but passing on Anthony was unforgivable and I'm not even a Pistons fan.
This is not an accurate comparison at all. The climate and attitude toward international players was completely different back then (Gasol was coming on, Dirk was coming on, international big men were the new high school big men), and Milicic had some crazy workout buzz. The Pistons were not by any stretch of the imagination the only team who would've taken Darko #2, he was a near consensus top 5 on everyone's board. If they hadn't have taken him either Miami or Toronto would've grabbed him and the league would look very different right now. There is no equivalent to Darko this year (except MAYBE Yi, but people have still seen him play a lot more and he doesn't appear to have the upside). Also remember when Anthony was coming out (and still today), there had been several dominant college players that busted in the NBA. All this illustrates is that the NBA draft is pretty ******* random. And the irony to it all is the Pistons had that #2 pick, could've had Melo, Wade, Bosh, or Howard, and still won the title and made it back the finals a year later. How great could have that team have been with Melo, Wade, or Bosh. Of course Larry Brown would've buried them at the end of the bench and crushed their confidence for years.

Excellent post; however, it's hard not to feel you and chronoaugust are giving Darko too much credit (and Larry Brown too much bad rap). Exactly how many decent games did Darko have in his rookie season? No more than 1 or 2 by my count. If dude possessed that much game-time (as opposed to personal workout) talent, he should've fared much better befre Brown's (supposedly) misguided instruction got to his head, no?

LB did a fine job turning Tayshaun Prince into a bona fide player, didn't he? Lest you name a few other of his botch jobs, I'm not buying into that "rookie-killer" hype.

Originally Posted by Brian278

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This is not an accurate comparison at all. The climate and attitude toward international players was completely different back then (Gasol was coming on, Dirk was coming on, international big men were the new high school big men), and Milicic had some crazy workout buzz. The Pistons were not by any stretch of the imagination the only team who would've taken Darko #2, he was a near consensus top 5 on everyone's board. If they hadn't have taken him either Miami or Toronto would've grabbed him and the league would look very different right now. There is no equivalent to Darko this year (except MAYBE Yi, but people have still seen him play a lot more and he doesn't appear to have the upside). Also remember when Anthony was coming out (and still today), there had been several dominant college players that busted in the NBA. All this illustrates is that the NBA draft is pretty ******* random. And the irony to it all is the Pistons had that #2 pick, could've had Melo, Wade, Bosh, or Howard, and still won the title and made it back the finals a year later. How great could have that team have been with Melo, Wade, or Bosh. Of course Larry Brown would've buried them at the end of the bench and crushed their confidence for years.

We can speculate as much as we want at what Darko "could" have become or "would" have done. But, the sad fact is that he is perhaps the biggest bust in the draft ever. And, Larry Brown is not to blame.

Having said that, if I were Kupchak, I'd trade Kwame for Darko in a heartbeat.

Originally Posted by bachbeet

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Having said that, if I were Kupchak, I'd trade Kwame for Darko in a heartbeat.

No, thanks. The token European softie roster spot has already been claimed. (Radmanovich, anyone?)

Originally Posted by whacked

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Excellent post; however, it's hard not to feel you and chronoaugust are giving Darko too much credit (and Larry Brown too much bad rap). Exactly how many decent games did Darko have in his rookie season? No more than 1 or 2 by my count. If dude possessed that much game-time (as opposed to personal workout) talent, he should've fared much better befre Brown's (supposedly) misguided instruction got to his head, no? LB did a fine job turning Tayshaun Prince into a bona fide player, didn't he? Lest you name a few other of his botch jobs, I'm not buying into that "rookie-killer" hype.
LB had Prince in his second year, and he also had absolutely nobody else to play at that position. Also I'm not sure that's a fair comparison either, because Prince was a well-developed, well coached player already through his time at Kentucky. Darko had to be brought along like a high school player, and sometimes you just have to suck it up while he's figuring it out on the floor. It's tough for any player to have a decent game when you only average 4 minutes a game and only see the floor in the garbage time. See David Lee as a perfect example of contributing rookie who got buried in the rotation for no reason, and Channing Frye to a lesser extent as well. I'm not saying Darko is the second coming of Bill Walton or anything, but he's at the least had his development stunted by a couple years. He has, at the least, had his confidence shattered, which isn't that hard to do in the first place for a teenager in a foreign country. Perhaps Brown had a master plan to unleash Darko as a remade player in his third year, but we'll never know. While Brown is perhaps the best coach ever at his particular brand of tough-love, break-them-down-and-build-them-up basketball, he is not good at developing rookies. He's rarely ever around long enough to do so in the first place, but his well known disdain for giving them quality minutes has never benefited any of the rookies in his care even if it was for the better of the team for the short term (which it clearly was). Hence why I suggested maybe Detroit should have traded the pick, or at least went with the most seasoned, defense oriented guy they could get. I maintain that, for example, had Chris Bosh been drafted instead he'd be at least one year behind his current development pace towards a 1st team All-NBA year at some point.

Originally Posted by Tomasso

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I don't envy Pax; with all those cards, what do you give up? You know that everyone wants Deng.
I know that's the problem, is no matter who the Chicago trades with, Deng is the required asset.

Originally Posted by whacked

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Exactly how many decent games did Darko have in his rookie season? No more than 1 or 2 by my count. If dude possessed that much game-time (as opposed to personal workout) talent, he should've fared much better befre Brown's (supposedly) misguided instruction got to his head, no?


Games and game time? Do tell how that happens from the bench?

Originally Posted by Brian278

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While Brown is perhaps the best coach ever at his particular brand of tough-love, break-them-down-and-build-them-up basketball, he is not good at developing rookies.

*nods* When I look back to the Brown era of Detroit, I see his greatest accomplishment in his handling of Rasheed Wallace. That put Detroit over the hump. This year showed us what can happen the "bad" Rasheed shows up.

Darko didn't play 1 real game as a piston. He played 2-5 minutes of garbage time and that was about it. It's not a matter if he had the talent he would do something with it. So far he has had about 1 nba season under his belt. The pistons (brown and saunders) didn't even try to bring him along, they just made him work out and get bulky, which is weird because originally his game wasn't about strength, but skill. Also, darko isn't the biggest bust of all time, do people remember kwame brown? Darko is younger and better than kwame brown right now and kwame was the #1 pick. Kwame also has been force fed playing time his whole career and isn't getting better at all. He has no feel for the game whatsoever, can't play a lick of defense, doesn't remember to box out ever, doesn't rotate on defense quickly at all, and rushes his offensive possesions. Yes, he's athletic, but that's it. I don't think he had as much potential as Darko but he was also crushed as a rookie and 2nd year player by Jordan who apparently called him a "***" a bunch of times and just kept killing him mentally and even made him cry. Kwame brown won't really become something, especially for a team who wants to win a title. Darko, however, is a smart player who plays good defense, does the small things, plus has some real talent to develop (he just turned 22 last month). I'm not saying he's going to be a superstar, or even an all star, but i feel he can be very valuable piece to a team. A big part of how rookies turn out is how they were developed and the culture they're brought into. Even good teams like the suns or spurs will take a player and make him another cog in their machine. The suns players put up a lot of points, but their system is all based upon quick decisions without thinking and a lot of their young talent (not amare or marion because they flourished before nash and d'antoni) would not be as good elsewear that requires a completely different style of play/offense. At least it would take adjusting. I have mixed feelings about the bobcats and their move for richardson. I think he'll help them contend for an 8th or maybe 7th spot this season, but he has a huge contract and an injury filled past. I also don't understand why they cut brevin knight who is one of the most capable back up points in the league. It wasn't money because Brevin said he'd take a pay cut, and it wasn't about halting felton's development because Brevin said he'd play small minutes just to stay there. They just cut him for no reason and brevin was really confused. I think having brandan wright wouldn't been a nice super athletic compliment to okafor. You need bigs in the nba to win consistantly at the top level unless you have a completely different system like the suns or warriors (and it appears this might not be enough to get them an nba title). Okafor, Wright, May, and Brezec would be a pretty solid core group of bigs. Resigning gerald wallace for a very reasonable contract was a great move for them. To be a serious team, you need a good perimeter defender and he's top notch, plus he boards and does everything else for you.

Originally Posted by Brian278

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This is not an accurate comparison at all. The climate and attitude toward international players was completely different back then (Gasol was coming on, Dirk was coming on, international big men were the new high school big men), and Milicic had some crazy workout buzz. The Pistons were not by any stretch of the imagination the only team who would've taken Darko #2, he was a near consensus top 5 on everyone's board. If they hadn't have taken him either Miami or Toronto would've grabbed him and the league would look very different right now. There is no equivalent to Darko this year (except MAYBE Yi, but people have still seen him play a lot more and he doesn't appear to have the upside). Also remember when Anthony was coming out (and still today), there had been several dominant college players that busted in the NBA. All this illustrates is that the NBA draft is pretty ******* random. And the irony to it all is the Pistons had that #2 pick, could've had Melo, Wade, Bosh, or Howard, and still won the title and made it back the finals a year later. How great could have that team have been with Melo, Wade, or Bosh. Of course Larry Brown would've buried them at the end of the bench and crushed their confidence for years.


Are you talking about Josh Howard? Dwight Howard was the #1 overall pick the following year. Remember that Syracuse won the NCAA tournament primarily because of Anthony. He was as highly regarded coming into the draft as Durant. Darko may have been slotted in the top 5 (as Yi was in this draft) but he was by no means the consensus #2.

Carmelo Anthony 02-03 Syracuse 10.0 Reb 2.2 Ast 1.6 Blk 22.2 Pts
Kevin Durant 06-07 Texas 11.1 Reb 1.3 Ast 1.0 Blk 25.8 Pts

Their stats are pretty similar and Anthony played against better competition.

Adam Morrison also had good stats his senior year but that's besides the point. And darko was not in the same boat as Yi. Darko was much more heralded and Darko was the no brainer #2 or 3 depending on what the teams needed. It wasn't like this year at all where Yi is a very unique, strange talent that doesn't really fit in any position yet. Yes, he was talking about josh howard too. NBA scouting is a very complex monster. It's not just about college stats as they don't really mean that much. There is a lot more to player evaluation such as skill set, athleticism, and playing style, plus more that i'm not even able to understand. I just think it's very foolish of you to look at the situation now and say the pistons were stupid. You act like it was a terrible pick at the time. The pistons were in a great situation where they didn't want to draft an immediate starter such as melo, but just a project. Why they didn't just trade down for vets with larry brown's system is beyond me. Wade and bosh were projected as good players in that year's draft, but it was kind of like this year's draft where oden and durant were viewed as above the others only it was a top 3 with bron/darko/melo. You're looking at everything completely in hindsight, drizzt. Player development, draft strategy and player scouting are very very complex, more so than it seems you're making it out to be. It's easy to be an espn sports fan and look at everything as stats, hype, and big talking points like busts or re-ordering drafts.

Free Agency is a lot different though, and as much as i think rashard is a good player, i don't think it's wise to pair him with dwight when they're at these different ages. I think the magic needed a younger player to grow with dwight. Plus, it's a really huge contract even though he's good and they needed to give him that if they wanted to sign him. But like i've said a few times, it's good enough to maybe get them to the 7th or 8th spot and that's all management wants to get money and fan support. Oh well. It's a business.

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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Adam Morrison also had good stats his senior year but that's besides the point.
BS. Look at their college stats again, if you will. 'Melo had high RPG (one of the few thing that translates very well over to the NBA) on top of PPG. And dude single-handedly led Syracuse to the national title; comparison with Adam Morrison (whose potential were never that highly regarded, a juiced up version of JJ Redick at best) is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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just think it's very foolish of you to look at the situation now and say the pistons were stupid. You act like it was a terrible pick at the time. The pistons were in a great situation where they didn't want to draft an immediate starter such as melo, but just a project. Why they didn't just trade down for vets with larry brown's system is beyond me.
BS. The 2002 Detroit Pistons front court rotation featured Ben Wallace/Clifford Robinson/Corliss Williamson/Mehmet Okur/Zeijko Rebraca. Then, and for 2/3 of the 2003 season (Darko's rookie year), till they traded for 'Sheed, they needed all the front court help they could get.

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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The pistons (brown and saunders) didn't even try to bring him along, they just made him work out and get bulky, which is weird because originally his game wasn't about strength, but skill.
Name me another players coming from Europe who didn't have to bulk up when they get to the NBA. Seriously, do.

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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Darko didn't play 1 real game as a piston. He played 2-5 minutes of garbage time and that was about it. It's not a matter if he had the talent he would do something with it.
Rebraca, Elden Cambell, Darvin Ham, Tremain Folkes (lol) all played more minutes than Darko that reason. Brian278 mentioned David Lee and Channing Frye, but they both played significant minutes in their first year. If Darko had had all that talent (albeit raw), he would have had done something about the situation, no?

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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Also, darko isn't the biggest bust of all time, do people remember kwame brown?
Funny you brought that up, I was just about to call Darko the European Kwarme and call it a day.

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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Darko is younger and better than kwame brown right now and kwame was the #1 pick.
As opposed to #2? Dude, just 2 years ago, when in the same situation, Kwarme had just as much, if not more promises than Darko ever do at this point. Besides, he actually showed flashes of brilliance, which has been relatively absent in Darko's NBA career.

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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He has no feel for the game whatsoever, can't play a lick of defense, doesn't remember to box out ever, doesn't rotate on defense quickly at all, and rushes his offensive possesions. Yes, he's athletic, but that's it.
Describes Milicic perfectly.

Originally Posted by chronoaugust

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I don't think he had as much potential as Darko ...
Yeah, back it up if you please. Otherwise, there's not much to discuss here...

Another point was that in 2003, international players were far less highly regarded than they are now. There was Nowitzki, and that's about it.

I'd also nominate Olowakandi as one of the biggest busts of all time as well.