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How do you roll? Untangle the Great Buttondown Collar Conspiracy! - Page 2

Poll Results: Which collar roll is closest to the ideal?

Poll expired: Apr 17, 2013  
  • 43% (70)
    #1
  • 6% (10)
    #2
  • 5% (8)
    #3
  • 30% (49)
    #4
  • 14% (23)
    #5
160 Total Votes  
post #16 of 197
Here is the dissertation on the Brooks collar which should put any idea of one ideal collar roll to bed.

http://heavytweed.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-origin-of-button-down-collar-shirt.html?m=1
post #17 of 197
No multiple answers? I think both 1 and 4 are good. The same shirt might look like either depending on the tie, amount of starch, humidity etc.
post #18 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertie View Post

So years later we focus on the visual remnant we are left with (the roll) rather than the reason the BD was popular in the first place. I'm not sure I agree that that just means attitude. It was part of a broader cultural movement. Another example where context has been lost. Maybe all these ancient pictures do us a disservice?

I don't understand why one cannot derive a more universal lesson from a specific context. Yes, the fame of the Brooks Brothers OCBD is very much steeped in historical context, yet it nonetheless resulted in a clear aesthetic. You can like that aesthetic, or not like it, regardless of context.

At any rate, I agree that attitude is a silly distinction. If I had known everyone really meant "I'm digging his 'tude!" every time they were praising a collar roll, I would have written off their opinions to begin with. Pure absurdity. As I've pointed out, there are plenty of ugly, unlined, soft, floppy buttondown collars that just look plain awful, without knowing anything about the wearer's psychological state of mind.

The truth is, there are distinguishable ways in which a buttondown collar rolls (ahem, as so artfully illustrated). In my experience, any given shirt's collar tends to roll a particular way. It may move a little bit here and there, but it doesn't fundamentally change with wear. It has to do with how the collar is cut, what fabric used, whether and how it is lined, the positioning of the buttons, etc. These are the sorts of things you'd discuss with your shirtmaker when trying to get the collar to roll the way you like.

You don't tell him: just make sure it expresses my attitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digmenow View Post

I don't wear a tie with my BD collars but I like them to stand as tall and crisply as possible with a sharp roll at the top. This is a Ben Silver but I have others that do this to a similar extent as well that I am required to wear to work daily, sans tie, of course. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Tell me what number this represents in the poll and I'll cast a vote.

I said I wouldn't say anything until results were in, but in this case I will make my opinion known: that is awful. It is a terrible roll. Because there is none. And that's why I feel comfortable speaking on it now--it doesn't even count as a roll to judged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dexconstruct View Post

Uh oh. I sense you may be looking for a OneCollarRoll, a search I think you will find disappointing. The charm of the old BB collar is that it changed depending on a variety of factors, giving one the appearance that having a consistently correct collar was of no concern.

Uh oh. I think you're trying to mask a characterization of my motivation as a substantive comment. smile.gif

I don't think you're right about the charm of the Brooks Brothers collar. In fact, your own link below shows that Brooks Brothers itself chose to depict a specific type of roll in its marketing illustrations. I'm talking about where a tie is worn. I thought that went without say, but you really can't assess a collar roll when a shirt isn't worn or a tie isn't around the neck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dexconstruct View Post

Here is the dissertation on the Brooks collar which should put any idea of one ideal collar roll to bed.

http://heavytweed.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-origin-of-button-down-collar-shirt.html?m=1
post #19 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

No multiple answers? I think both 1 and 4 are good. The same shirt might look like either depending on the tie, amount of starch, humidity etc.

Some of the differences are purposefully subtle. The point is to pick what's absolutely most ideal, even if it's a close call.
post #20 of 197
These aren't even pictures of clothes, they're abstract little doodles. It's like voting on "fit pics" of cartoon characters. "Homer Simpson's fit is ideal because you can see his shirt follows the contours of his body."
post #21 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makoto Chan View Post

These aren't even pictures of clothes, they're abstract little doodles. It's like voting on "fit pics" of cartoon characters. "Homer Simpson's fit is ideal because you can see his shirt follows the contours of his body."

Oh jeezus.

They are Platonic representations, yes. So what? I'm sure people can make the requisite calculations to accommodate immaterial deviations in real-life examples.
post #22 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

... that is awful. It is a terrible roll. Because there is none. And that's why I feel comfortable speaking on it now--it doesn't even count as a roll to judged...
It's merely 'crisp'.
post #23 of 197
#4 for me. From what i can tell, it contours around the tie more closely than #1, almost imitating a pinned collar without the additional fuss
post #24 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digmenow View Post

It's merely 'crisp'.

But a roll needs to roll to be a roll. I thought that was self-evident. Would you call a square a four-sided, equal-sided, right-angled "circle?"
post #25 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

But a roll needs to roll to be a roll. I thought that was self-evident. Would you call a square a four-sided, equal-sided, right-angled "circle?"
Rigidity in a collar roll thread? Unexpected contradiction. Oh well. Never mind, then.
post #26 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Some of the differences are purposefully subtle. The point is to pick what's absolutely most ideal, even if it's a close call.

I think your poll will show that the differences between 1 and 4 (and to some degree 5) are too close to call. And what difference exists may be related to statistical bias rather than a legitimate result.
post #27 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

It's all about the attitude? Come on, guys. That is such a lame cop-out. It wouldn't be a good explanation in virtually any other context, and it isn't here.

After all, you don't need a vintage Brooks Brothers OCBD through which to express attitude. Any floppy, unlined collar will do. However, a pleasing roll is not a given. I have a one of the much vaunted Mercer OCBDs with an unlined, soft collar. Guess what? The roll sucks. I won't say how, as that would reveal my preferences. But it is terrible, and it has nothing to with attitude.

Interesting you feel that way about your Mercer shirt. I bought my first one a little less than a year ago. When my current order arrives in a couple of weeks, I'll be up to nine, which should indicate the esteem in which I hold them. I notice that I do seem to get far more compliments about my appearance when wearing Mercer shirts than with my other BDs. (Except for very dressy occasions, I almost always wear a BD.)
post #28 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post

Interesting you feel that way about your Mercer shirt. I bought my first one a little less than a year ago. When my current order arrives in a couple of weeks, I'll be up to nine, which should indicate the esteem in which I hold them. I notice that I do seem to get far more compliments about my appearance when wearing Mercer shirts than with my other BDs. (Except for very dressy occasions, I almost always wear a BD.)

Don't get me wrong, the shirt is great in every other respect, and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. It just doesn't roll on me. At all. I've seen how good Mercers can look on others.
post #29 of 197

My gut said #4 initially, but something about #5 is really appealing. In fact, if I could change my vote I'd go for 5. It seems like the most confident, relaxed roll, if that makes any sense. Partly this has to do with the exposedtie, but in real life each of the other rolls would probably expose a little bit of tie as well, so who knows.

post #30 of 197

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