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how are m2m balance changes made?

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 
What is it? Just like many things in life its a crap shoot. When you play craps you can win big, or you can loose big. It's the same with online m2m. you can get a beautifuly fitted suit but you can just as easily get a piece of junk. Or something in between.
consider this, you are expected, due to your vast experiance, to give the manufacture the correct information so that they can make the perfict suit for you. that makes sense right?
you are telling someone thousands of miles away what to do.
You are using customer talk in "your language," he is understanding tailor talk in "his language."

All this is done without him ever seeing you. Can you see where the problem is?

You can wait for a visiting tailor from the manufacture to come here but that one will cost you double the price. You could use a local tailor that contracts with the foreign manufacture, but then that will also be at that higher price. But he will also have problems and that though does not garantee perfection.

Major manufactures of r t w desiner brands offer m2m. their problem is that they depend on the retail stores to give them the right information. If you go this route, always ask for the head tailor to measure you. Stay away from the salesman and even the department or store manager.

I dont mean to scare anyone away from m2m; I just want you to understand what is really involved.

Naturally the m2m folks want all their every garments to be perfect. But we all know that is impossible. Its you the customer that is responsible for the fiit. they can only do what you tell them to do.

The cutters in m2m shops have default changes to be used when they interperate your order. For example, when you ask for a balance change here is what the cutter wil do.
The changes pictured here can be used to different degrees and different combinations.
The dotted lines are the most common that are used.
Those pivot open and closed changes are sometimes used in extreme cases. but they are also used in other types of body changes.


post #2 of 14

I've had tremendous success with online mtm, but I've also seen a lot of very shxtty suits come from that method. Then again, on this site, I've seen very shxtty examples of suits from every method (including bespoke), so I guess that everything is a crap shoot.

 

From my experience, the keys to getting a good-looking online mtm item are providing accurate measurements and communicating with the service team to make sure that everyone's as close to the same page as possible. You never completely understand what another person has in mind, but communicating minimizes the gap between "customer talk" and "tailor talk." There are plenty of instances where a member went to a physical location for measurements and fittings then, like an idiot, came here to ask questions and vent grievances about the fit instead of doing it while he was with the tailor; being serviced in person doesn't solve the communication issue.

 

Once you get your item, you can make the small tweaks at your local tailor's shop and submit the adjustments for subsequent online orders mtm...works like a charm. Take ownership of the process.

post #3 of 14

It took me three jackets to get decent MTM with a local tailor, so I can only imagine how terrible would have things been if I ordered online. When I mean decent I mean something that is closer to bespoke than RTW, yet it's still off. With the latest commission a balance problem appeared (short back). I didn't notice it before because my previous jackets were tight, so the jacket's back was glued to my actual back. So, next jacket will come with a bit of "stoop" and that may introduce new problems. I might just save a bit more and tell him to make me a first bespoke jacket instead; it's a very, very painful process and I can't imagine doing it blindly online. What would be fixed in basted fittings with bespoke, has to be noted and adjusted for a subsequent order with MTM, without even knowing if it's going to work or not. Those who get a decent garment with internet MTM are very lucky.

post #4 of 14
Thread Starter 
Like i said guys, "It's a crap shoot."
post #5 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

It took me three jackets to get decent MTM with a local tailor, so I can only imagine how terrible would have things been if I ordered online. When I mean decent I mean something that is closer to bespoke than RTW, yet it's still off. With the latest commission a balance problem appeared (short back). I didn't notice it before because my previous jackets were tight, so the jacket's back was glued to my actual back. So, next jacket will come with a bit of "stoop" and that may introduce new problems. I might just save a bit more and tell him to make me a first bespoke jacket instead; it's a very, very painful process and I can't imagine doing it blindly online. What would be fixed in basted fittings with bespoke, has to be noted and adjusted for a subsequent order with MTM, without even knowing if it's going to work or not. Those who get a decent garment with internet MTM are very lucky.

do you have a heavy and or a rounded back?
post #6 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by a tailor View Post


do you have a heavy and or a rounded back?

I'm not sure - don't know what a "normal" back is, to compare. My tailor doesn't seem to figure out what is making my back/shoulders/neck combo so hard to fit.

 

What I feel is that both my shoulders and my neck are displaced forward compared to a "normal" person (isn't this just what a stoop-ed posture is?) My jackets seem to constantly try to move backwards and away from my neck, and if I pull them forwards to correct that, I get the short back.

post #7 of 14
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDiaz View Post

I'm not sure - don't know what a "normal" back is, to compare. My tailor doesn't seem to figure out what is making my back/shoulders/neck combo so hard to fit.

What I feel is that both my shoulders and my neck are displaced forward compared to a "normal" person (isn't this just what a stoop-ed posture is?) My jackets seem to constantly try to move backwards and away from my neck, and if I pull them forwards to correct that, I get the short back.
the amount that the back is short is the amount you need higher up. not at the shoulder but
at the rounder part of the back. see the split that is opened on the back of the stoop-ed pattern.
this is what you need, but it must be moved to where you need it, not where it is pictured. here.
the amount to open may need to be done in 2 or more small movements.
its a judgment call.
post #8 of 14

It's definately tricky. Maybe modifying the shoulders for a stoop-ed posture would help with shoulder fit too. The more I pull the jacket forwards, the better the shoulders look, and it looks like the shoulder seam would need to be placed more forward to actually follow my shoulder line. I don't know if the MTM program supports such specific changes by default, but the tailor sometimes makes adjustments to the pattern himself or calls the workshop to tell them what to do, so it may work. I don't want to sound like I'm teaching him his job, so I'll tell him "I have the feeling that I need some more cloth at the upper back" and see what he thinks. I might also show him your diagram and ask him if that's how they adjust for a stoop-ed figure. Thank you smile.gif

post #9 of 14

My question is how many "tailors" today actually make their own suits? How many "tailors" offer a true bespoke service today where they measure you, do a second fitting at baste stage then a third fitting with the completed suit then the final alterations?

 

Having a bespoke suit made sounds great in practice but the tailor that does the initial consultation is unlikely to be the same person that actually makes your suit. When you go into the store did you interrupt the tailor in the middle of making a suit?  Running your own workshop is expensive and it's hard to stay competitive when other tailors are outsourcing the actual tailoring to either Asia or less likely Europe. While there are some notable exceptions it's now only the top end tailors where you will pay extremely high prices that make their own bespoke suits

 

There are some great tailors still out there but many are now offering what really is their version of a MTM service whereby they take the measurements send them to one of the big Asian suit factories and the second fitting is on the completed suit which is then altered to fit. Some of these so called "bespoke" suits are even machine made.

 

We're selling more and more high end suits where the customer works with a local tailor to have his measurements and body profile completed. We then send this to a tailor that makes nothing else but fully hand stitched suits and services a number of the top tailors in Hong Kong and other bespoke tailors all over the world. He draws a completely new pattern for each individual customer based on the measurements and body profile and then makes the suit completely by hand. The customer then takes the suit back to his local tailor who then does the final fitting and tweaks the suit to fit even better. Is there really that much difference to what many"tailors" are doing nowadays?

 

True, it may not be a true bespoke fit but you can get very close to it. We can even arrange a baste stage fitting for an extra charge if the customer requests.

 

We sell completely hand stitched suit, by which we mean it doesn't go anywhere near a sewing machine and every stitch is done by hand by a real tailor, and made from a high end Holland & Sherry cloth for $999. Allow a little for the final tweak done post delivery and you have close to a bespoke suit with change out of $1,200. When you consider that many tailors would sell a Holland & Sherry suit for prices starting at $3,000, and to be frank most of them would not be made to the standard our high end suits are made, then you must admit it's tempting which is why we're selling more at more suits at the $1,000 mark and above.

 

The issue with online MTM is that people thing you can send in your measurements and get back a perfectly fitting suit. As you said it is rarely going to happen that way. If you buy a suit from your local tailor the completed suit is unlikely to fit properly without that post delivery tweak. The difference is the tailor allows for this in the initial price.If you realise this and make an allowance in your suit budget for that final tweak you can get amazing results from MTM and in many cases for far less than half the price then you can buy locally.

post #10 of 14
I think one of the advantages of working with a local tailor (assuming you have a local tailor) is that they will refine your pattern with time. Even if it starts as quasi-MTM, after some trial and error, they will have dialed in your fit pretty well. If you outsource and then get it "cleaned up" locally, it is harder to have this virtuous circle. If that feedback loop can be built into the process, it is possible to refine over time I suppose but the lines of communication are longer and still more prone to error..

I think another advantage of the local tailor is pride in the work. If they make your clothing from scratch, they will want the best possible outcome to keep you happy. Further, they will sometimes make the adjustments needed with the passage of time (and wine) for free or a nominal charge. If the local tailor only makes the MTM alterations, they do not have the same stake in the outcome and must charge you for any alterations as this is the only way for them to earn a living.

I can't speak to the techical aspect of getting the best outcome given someone's unique body shape but would tend to believe that a trained eye that routinely translates two dimensional cloth into three dimensional clothing would have a higher probability of creating a better fitting garment than my taking my own measurements.

I guess I also like supporting local craftspeople.

None of these are absolutes of course. The MTM option is great for folks poorly served by RTW and who may not have access to a full tailor. Also, the price/quality ratio can be great. Also - not all local tailors take the same pride in their work.
post #11 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by bertie View Post

I think one of the advantages of working with a local tailor (assuming you have a local tailor) is that they will refine your pattern with time. Even if it starts as quasi-MTM, after some trial and error, they will have dialed in your fit pretty well. If you outsource and then get it "cleaned up" locally, it is harder to have this virtuous circle. If that feedback loop can be built into the process, it is possible to refine over time I suppose but the lines of communication are longer and still more prone to error..

I think another advantage of the local tailor is pride in the work. If they make your clothing from scratch, they will want the best possible outcome to keep you happy. Further, they will sometimes make the adjustments needed with the passage of time (and wine) for free or a nominal charge. If the local tailor only makes the MTM alterations, they do not have the same stake in the outcome and must charge you for any alterations as this is the only way for them to earn a living.

I can't speak to the techical aspect of getting the best outcome given someone's unique body shape but would tend to believe that a trained eye that routinely translates two dimensional cloth into three dimensional clothing would have a higher probability of creating a better fitting garment than my taking my own measurements.

I guess I also like supporting local craftspeople.

None of these are absolutes of course. The MTM option is great for folks poorly served by RTW and who may not have access to a full tailor. Also, the price/quality ratio can be great. Also - not all local tailors take the same pride in their work.

The problem is that people are lazy idiots who aren't willing to do any of those important things that you mentioned. Either way, most people are going to get suits that fit like shxt. The people who aren't lazy idiots will be able to make it work in person or online.

post #12 of 14

If your local tailor offers MTM, fit will improve with time as well. It might end up fitting just like bespoke if the MTM program allows for plenty of adjustments, but it will take many commissions and tweaks on finished garments rather than basted fittings. Whether it's worth it or not depends on what you're charged for MTM, and how perfect a fit do you need to be happy...

 

For me, local MTM serves me well for garments that I can wear while saving for good bespoke, and that I will continue to wear after that.

post #13 of 14
Thread Starter 
HEY BERTIE1

I dont care for suits made from SCRATCH. Its very itchy and does not drape well.

I will stick with suits made from CLOTH. much nicer always.

sorry i just could not resist that one. he he
post #14 of 14
happy.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by a tailor View Post

HEY BERTIE1

I dont care for suits made from SCRATCH. Its very itchy and does not drape well.

I will stick with suits made from CLOTH. much nicer always.

sorry i just could not resist that one. he he
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