Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread



clee1982 said:

Absolutely unnecessary, unless someone can convince me otherwise..., I suppose I can appreciate his dedication..., though I am sure it reflects in terms of $$$

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You won't get a perfect fit in your first bespoke pair, or even in the second or third pair (or so I've repeatedly heard). These trial shoes should technically save you one try. You wear and abuse them for a month (or maybe more).

and yes, they do cost extra, ¥31500 ($315). They look so nice, and they are a bargain for hand sewn welted shoes. Personally I would not return them to him



nutcracker said:

You won't get a perfect fit in your first bespoke pair, or even on the second or third pair (or so I've repeatedly heard). These trial shoes should technically save you one try. You wear and abuse them for a month (or maybe more).

and good question. Yes, they do cost extra, ¥31500 ($315). They look so nice, and they are a bargain for hand sewn welted shoes. Personally I would not return them to him

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I am not doubting trial shoes, just doubting the need for all the details.



clee1982 said:

I am not doubting trial shoes, just doubting the need for all the details.

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Yeah, I see your point now

Gotta make it pretty so they're not embarrassing to wear to work... but yeah, they're gonna get tossed.....



VRaivio said:

I don't recall ever reading of another maker with a similar test pair that Fukuda offers. This must be next level dedication.

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John Lobb (Paris)

http://coolechicstyletodressitalian.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/bespoke-shoe-john-lobb-paris.html

and a few other French makers (here Anthony Delos) do the same procedure.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/257353/st-crispins-appreciation-thread/195#post_6015149

Here is yours truly five months ago (I'm sure you were a member then) with link to the original photo essay of the JLP fitting session:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/257353/st-crispins-appreciation-thread/180#post_6012945

Whether or not this an efficient way of fitting a shoe is debatable.
Wearing the shoes first for three months, then re-making it with the knowledge the wearer has gathered in this period of time, would be much better solution.

P.S.

nutcracker said:

You wear and abuse them for a month (or maybe more).

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I believe, with the French makers it's just try-on and cutting-open within the same session. So the customer is forced to make up his mind within 1/2 hour or so.



bengal-stripe said:

John Lobb (Paris)

http://coolechicstyletodressitalian.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/bespoke-shoe-john-lobb-paris.html

and a few other French makers (here Anthony Delos) do the same procedure.

http://www.styleforum.net/t/257353/st-crispins-appreciation-thread/195#post_6015149

Here is yours truly five months ago (I'm sure you were a member then) with link to the original photo essay of the JLP fitting session:

http://www.styleforum.net/t/257353/st-crispins-appreciation-thread/180#post_6012945

Whether or not this an efficient way of fitting a shoe is debatable.
Wearing the shoes first for three months, then re-making it with the knowledge the wearer has gathered in this period of time, would be much better solution.

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Yes I remember those posts from SC thread...

I naturally assume Fukuda's trial method derives from his English training. Are there English makers that still do take home shoes?



nutcracker said:

I naturally assume Fukuda's trial method derives from his English training. Are there English makers that still do take home shoes?

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English bespoke shoes are traditionally fitted "in welt". The (proper) upper is made, gets lasted, heel and toe stiffener are in place, and the welt is fully stitched. At this stage a temporary shank and heel gets attached (but the sole is still missing) and the fitting takes place. After the fitting the necessary alterations (if any) get made to the last, and the shoe are adjusted. Thereafter the sole is stitched and the heel attached.

Here is Simon Crompton's photo essay on his bespoke Cleverley shoes. For the fitting check chapters 8 and 9.

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/02/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-1.html#.UYfvTqLA4ng

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/03/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-2.html

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/04/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-3.html#.UYfwEKLA4ng

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/04/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-4.html

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/05/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-5.html#.UYfwqqLA4ng

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/06/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-6.html#.UYfxHKLA4ng

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/06/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-7.html#.UYfxjqLA4ng

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/08/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-8.html#.UYfx_KLA4ng

http://www.permanentstyle.co.uk/2010/09/bespoke-shoes-at-cleverley-part-9.html#.UYfykqLA4ng

That is the typical way West-End shoemakers work. (Apart from John Lobb who stopped doing fittings
under the previous MD ??? Lobb, John Hunter Lobb's uncle.)

And to answer your question, no, you cannot take the fittings home with you. You are supposed to make up your mind during the fitting session.

So in the case of reducing width or adding volume, they would have to relast the shoes and most likely making a new insole? And if bad enough, making a new upper? Or they just going to stretch or heat shrink the problematic areas??

How about the process for full Norvegese sewn construction shoes? Since these shoes won't have welts and would be heard to stretch without damaging the upper?

chogall said:

So in the case of reducing width or adding volume, they would have to relast the shoes and most likely making a new insole? And if bad enough, making a new upper? Or they just going to stretch or heat shrink the problematic areas??

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Well, how to solve a certain problem, has to to be decided on a case by case basis. Over the centuries, shoemakers have acquired a few nasty and/or naughty tricks and have learned how to make a shoe fit, even if the fit is initially somewhat off. Also some firms will be more ruthless than others. It depends on the degree of the problem, whether a bit of stretching or shrinking will do or if a partial or a complete re-make is required. Most of the time, you will get the existing upper to fit over the revised last, but if the problem is too big, then a new upper needs to be made.

Shoemaking firms (at least those can afford to charge high prices) calculate with a not inconsiderable margin, as to cover the costs for required re-makes. After all, in the end it all comes out in the wash: one job goes swimmingly and brings a nice profit, while the other one just breaks even or, in the worst case scenario, comes in at a loss. As long as the profit at the end of the year comes up to expectations, all is well. Of course, if a firm has more re-makes than good fits, they might consider if they are in the right line of work.


[quote name="chogall" url="/t/343005/japanese-shoes-bespoke-rtw-super-thread/540#post_6329424"How about the process for full Norvegese sewn construction shoes? Since these shoes won't have welts and would be heard to stretch without damaging the upper?[/quote]

Norwegian construction (leave that Norvegese to the Italians) is a quite rare beast in English shoemaking. A firm might refuse to do a Norwegian for a first-time customer, (or craftily try to talk you out of the idea), just as they do not like to work in expensive exotics or make a 'casual' (loafer) for a new customer.



bengal-stripe said:

English bespoke shoes are traditionally fitted "in welt". The (proper) upper is made, gets lasted, heel and toe stiffener are in place, and the welt is fully stitched. At this stage a temporary shank and heel gets attached (but the sole is still missing) and the fitting takes place. After the fitting the necessary alterations (if any) get made to the last, and the shoe are adjusted. Thereafter the sole is stitched and the heel attached.

That is the typical way West-End shoemakers work. (Apart from John Lobb who stopped doing fittings
under the previous MD ??? Lobb, John Hunter Lobb's uncle.)

And to answer your question, no, you cannot take the fittings home with you. You are supposed to make up your mind during the fitting session.

Click to expand...

bengal-stripe said:

Well, how to solve a certain problem, has to to be decided on a case by case basis. Over the centuries, shoemakers have acquired a few nasty and/or naughty tricks and have learned how to make a shoe fit, even if the fit is initially somewhat off. Also some firms will be more ruthless than others. It depends on the degree of the problem, whether a bit of stretching or shrinking will do or if a partial or a complete re-make is required. Most of the time, you will get the existing upper to fit over the revised last, but if the problem is too big, then a new upper needs to be made.

Shoemaking firms (at least those can afford to charge high prices) calculate with a not inconsiderable margin, as to cover the costs for required re-makes. After all, in the end it all comes out in the wash: one job goes swimmingly and brings a nice profit, while the other one just breaks even or, in the worst case scenario, comes in at a loss. As long as the profit at the end of the year comes up to expectations, all is well. Of course, if a firm has more re-makes than good fits, they might consider if they are in the right line of work.

Norwegian construction (leave that Norvegese to the Italians) is a quite rare beast in English shoemaking. A firm might refuse to do a Norwegian for a first-time customer, (or craftily try to talk you out of the idea), just as they do not like to work in expensive exotics or make a 'casual' (loafer) for a new customer.

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Thanks B-S!! I appreciate your insight!!

Thanks for that post, Bengal Stripes. Really enjoyed reading it.

Trial shoes by Marquess ain't too shabby either..


lazyman trial shoes....


oouuchhhh

Patina works by Yusuke Ito

Ito worked as a Patineur / colorist, and also as a quality control supervisor for Pierre Corthay, Paris. You may have seen him @ Leffot's NYshow. He now has a career in Japan, doing shows here and there.




Patinating an Alden Color 8....not sure why you would want to, but I guess why not


Miyagi Kogyo RTW in Burgundy Cordovan....perhaps too light?


More like Color 8 now


This one, I like


JLP in Patina.


Tucchino Bags in Patina


Le Patineur.... Please don't comment on his hair.....

Did he only dye or wax shoes darker or he does full decapage and paint?



chogall said:

Did he only dye or wax shoes darker or he does full decapage and paint?

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Photo from his atelier.
He seems more like a painting type. I'm not sure what the process is for cordovan.

Ya looks like unfinished crust leather being painted with dyes not creams. That takes much more skill than cream based paints!!