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Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread - Page 269

post #4021 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post


There is one big difference which you haven't mentioned so far: one shoemaker (Shoji/Marquess) uses a fudge wheel, while Yohei employs a stitch-marker. The look is quite different, the fudge wheeled welt has a chamfer on the outside, while with the stitch-marker the ridges get cut off abruptly. Now DW will come in singing the praises of the stitch-marker (because he uses it), you might find that welt 'more distinct' but I find it a rather crude method. (I presume the stitch-marked welt is more forgiving if rotary sanding/finishing wheels are employed.)

There is also a geographical divide in Europe: England and France uses the fudge wheel, while in Austria, Hungary and further east, the stitch-marker rules.(Check your Maftei and Kielman shoes.)

  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Austrian shoe using stitch-marker with about 7 1/2 stitches/inch (or 1/2 Paris Point stitch length)




English-style (actually that shoe is Shoji/Marquess) fudge wheel, showing the typical pyramids. Stitched at about 12 stitches/inch.

 

As Thundermarch states above, Yohei also uses a fudge wheel.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I could be mistaken...photos are deceiving and never tell the whole story anyway...but the thing I noticed immediately, between the two shoes (and maybe of greater significance than the welt treatment), is that one appears to made of leather that is "struck through" and the other is not.

No comment, no judgement.

 

I reacted on this as well at first, but after looking more closely the Freudenberg leather isn't struck through either. You see it quite evidently in some holes, and especially if you look at the skived tongue. I'm not sure why it does look like that in some areas, if they've been going over the holes carefully with pigmented cream (but then brushed most of it off) or whatever. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan88 View Post


Nice comparison. Amazed you got all that down in some hours.
Your chisel toe would be more towards what Marquess' square toe shape toe is like. It's fun to see how the proportions change due to a slight rounding of the edges.

In my opinion, the main difference of the last shape is how Shoji aspires to keep the lines as straight as possible, whereas Yohei cuts in a bit more to acquire his look.
I think they're both great, but for my next pair I may ask for a slightly more rounded chisel.

As for our feet, they are indeed quite similar. I don't have the hallux issues, but do have the three-toes-same-length-issue biggrin.gif I think this makes your last possible to cut in a bit sharper too.

Edit:
The unlined tongue with skived edges is an amazing feat that I had not experienced before Marquess. Very comfortable:

 

Hehe, I work fast :D Yes, it makes sense that much of the different in looks is due to our different shaped feet, even if both probably could accentuate it a bit more towards the other's version if they'd wanted.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aristoi bcn View Post
 

You guys make this forum worth with these articles. Thank you very much.

 

Thanks a lot!

post #4022 of 4138
None of the Freudenberg I've ever seen was struck through, nor is the current Weinheimer. It's not something you'd want to see on a chrome tan really, it seems to weaken the leather when the dye penetrates completely.

Unlined tongues is standard at Lobb, though I prefer them to be lined personally. Stops the tongue being so prone to curling, helps protect sensitive insteps from lumpy laces, looks neater when you peek inside the shoe and gives a bit more height on the instep of a shoe which generally looks better. You can still skive the edges, just don't line them right to the edge and leave ~1/4" skived around the edge.
post #4023 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


I reacted on this as well at first, but after looking more closely the Freudenberg leather isn't struck through either. You see it quite evidently in some holes, and especially if you look at the skived tongue. I'm not sure why it does look like that in some areas, if they've been going over the holes carefully with pigmented cream (but then brushed most of it off) or whatever. 


Thanks a lot!
He does for a fact carefully colour all the punched holes
post #4024 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

None of the Freudenberg I've ever seen was struck through, nor is the current Weinheimer. It's not something you'd want to see on a chrome tan really, it seems to weaken the leather when the dye penetrates completely.

Unlined tongues is standard at Lobb, though I prefer them to be lined personally. Stops the tongue being so prone to curling, helps protect sensitive insteps from lumpy laces, looks neater when you peek inside the shoe and gives a bit more height on the instep of a shoe which generally looks better. You can still skive the edges, just don't line them right to the edge and leave ~1/4" skived around the edge.
 
Yeah seen tongues made like that, which also seemed nice. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan88 View Post


He does for a fact carefully colour all the punched holes

 

Of course he does. Got to love that guy. 

post #4025 of 4138
 

 

 

 

 

What a great contribution, but if I had those shoes I`d be conditioning and brushing the sole...seriously :rotflmao: 

post #4026 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

None of the Freudenberg I've ever seen was struck through, nor is the current Weinheimer. It's not something you'd want to see on a chrome tan really, it seems to weaken the leather when the dye penetrates completely.

Not sure that's necessarily true...at least not in my experience.

Sometimes when a calf skin is struck through the grain is lightly buffed or treated in some way so that the dye will penetrate. Additionally, I've been told that the skins will often be "tumbled" in a large vat of the dye--sometimes known as "mill dyeing." Both of these operations will slightly soften the grain surface. But I have never seen a struck through hide that was significantly weaker (tensile strength) because of it.

In any event, I am not esp. fond of that brittle grain surface that is found on so many unstruck chrome tanned calf skins. I suspect it contributes to cracking.

I used to make full wellingtons out of a really nice struck through French calf...when I could get it. Blocking the front of the boot so that there are no pipes or wrinkles...or surplus army goods...in the throat puts a lot of stress on the margins of the pattern. A lot of stress. Tearing is always a possibility...in some hands, a near certainty. Yet I never had a problem with that leather.
Quote:
Unlined tongues is standard at Lobb, though I prefer them to be lined personally. Stops the tongue being so prone to curling, helps protect sensitive insteps from lumpy laces, looks neater when you peek inside the shoe and gives a bit more height on the instep of a shoe which generally looks better. You can still skive the edges, just don't line them right to the edge and leave ~1/4" skived around the edge.

I am with you on this...in every aspect.. That's the way I do it too. I've always felt that an unlined tongue made the shoe look a little unfinished. That might be just a personal bias though.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 9/19/16 at 2:03pm
post #4027 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan88 View Post

He does for a fact carefully colour all the punched holes

Good on him for that!

It's that kind of mindfulness that takes the work to the next level.

That said, my philosophy has always been that shoes are our interface with the world. And the world is a harsh place.

All shoes get scuffed. If the leather is unstruck, the colour...the dye...is only skin deep. Sometimes not even skin deep--all too often the dye doesn't even penetrate the corium--it's just sitting on the top of the grain.

When scuffed, what is revealed or exposed underneath is greyish blue or bluish white. Nothing--no polish, no treatment, short of an immediate and perfectly matching application of an alcohol based dye, can entirely cover or mitigate that. This is especially true on buttercup or cognac or similarly light coloured leathers.

It the skin is struck through, it is almost certain to be the same colour beneath the grain.

So while nothing can undo the damage, a leather that is struck through can often be made presentable more surely and quickly than one where the ugly, dirt collecting, chrome core is exposed.

--
Edited by DWFII - 9/19/16 at 7:47am
post #4028 of 4138
I dunno, I think all scuffed leather looks scuffed, whether it's struck through or not. The bit underneath will take the polish differently even if it's dyed the same as the surface initially. No avoiding it, but if you're cute with waxes and things you can trick up any scuffs on toes and heels to be nearly invisible.
post #4029 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

I dunno, I think all scuffed leather looks scuffed, whether it's struck through or not. The bit underneath will take the polish differently even if it's dyed the same as the surface initially. No avoiding it.

I agree. I think both you and I feel almost personally hurt when we see a nice piece of leather that is scuffed. Well, maybe it's just me...

On the other hand, one of the reasons I got onto struck through leather is that I make tall boots (often with brightly coloured tops and multiple rows of equally colourful stitching) ...made to be ridden and worn in the saddle.

If I make a boot from a burgundy unstruck leather, the top will rub on the saddle leather or on the fabric of a pair of jeans for instance, and the colour will come off. It won't stay burgundy. Even the best of unstruck chrome tanned leathers soon begins to look grey...because the dye is really just a paint job on the surface and it rubs off...and then we see that the true colour of the leather is grey.

Maybe just another reason I kind of prefer veg tans.

--
Edited by DWFII - 9/19/16 at 8:29am
post #4030 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

When I see a nice pair of shoes posted here...or several pairs...I often click on the photo. In the window that opens I then click on "original." Sometimes this opens a larger version of the photo, and sometimes a magnifying glass will replace my cursor. I can then inspect details that are not obvious in the post.

I clicked on the seventh (?) photo in j ingevaldsson's post (the one with the toes side by side) and could see on the toe broguing that there was a white core to the leather on the right-hand shoe. And not...or not as evidently...on the left shoe.

Does it make a difference? I think it does, or at least, all else being equal, I would always prefer to use a struck through leather than one that was not. That said, some very fine leathers are not struck though. I am thinking of Annonay, for example.


Hi DWF,

Thanks for the reply. That's a clue we novices often overlook I must say as I was only focusing on the tongue haha...
Something for me to look out for in the future for finely made shoes icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
post #4031 of 4138
fing02[1].gif

No problem... but as it turns out I was wrong--both leathers are "unstruck." As it turns out one maker just went to a bit of extra effort to dye the perfs, the other didn't.

But, "it's an ill wind..." and all that, and perhaps just the notion that you can get a better look at photos is helpful (although, photos never tell the whole story).
post #4032 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

None of the Freudenberg I've ever seen was struck through, nor is the current Weinheimer. It's not something you'd want to see on a chrome tan really, it seems to weaken the leather when the dye penetrates completely.

Unlined tongues is standard at Lobb, though I prefer them to be lined personally. Stops the tongue being so prone to curling, helps protect sensitive insteps from lumpy laces, looks neater when you peek inside the shoe and gives a bit more height on the instep of a shoe which generally looks better. You can still skive the edges, just don't line them right to the edge and leave ~1/4" skived around the edge.


Why wouldn't you want to see struck through on tan leather? And how does struck through dye weaken the leather?
Edited by vmss - 10/2/16 at 6:51pm
post #4033 of 4138
All the great chrome leathers I've used throughout my career - the freudenbergs, annonays, du puys, weineimers - have had the pigments applied to the surface only. Anything chrome that I've handled where the dye has soaked through, has been a bit gutless. My not-at-all-scientific evaluation of this experience has led me to the assumption that chucking the tanned hides in a bucket of dye leads to an inferior leather than when the dye is painted onto the surface. I may well be wrong though.
post #4034 of 4138
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmss View Post

Why wouldn't you want to see struck through on tan leather? And how does struck through dye weaken the leather?
\


Struck through only means that the dye penetrates throughly the whole thickness of the leather while it is in the drum, I don't think that the dye can weaken the leather/ affect the grain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

All the great chrome leathers I've used throughout my career - the freudenbergs, annonays, du puys, weineimers - have had the pigments applied to the surface only. Anything chrome that I've handled where the dye has soaked through, has been a bit gutless. My not-at-all-scientific evaluation of this experience has led me to the assumption that chucking the tanned hides in a bucket of dye leads to an inferior leather than when the dye is painted onto the surface. I may well be wrong though.

All chrome leather have always colour added on top, it could be pigment or an acrylic aniline. You have a base colour after the leather is dyed on the drum, in what is called the crust, plus the final finish that it is added on top. A drum dyed chrome tanned leather will always show a blueish/greyish line in the middle, a stricken through no.

what happens is that you need a minimum of 60 hides in drum to make it worthwhile for a tannery, Tanneries will produce 60/90 crusts on the same base colour and will finish them on the colour of their choice (similar to the base colour)
post #4035 of 4138
Thank you, I'm familiar with tanneries etc. I would disagree, though, that dye penetrating throughout the hide doesn't affect the leather. Just my personal opinion based on my experience, no number of netsplanations will change that.
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