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Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread - Page 268

post #4006 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMarch View Post

Am still a little sore about this.
Ha

I think it was very educational for all parties involved! Even though we have worked with Bonafè for years, we still learn new things all the time. They offer so many constructions, version and options. Enzo has been making shoes for something like 70+ years, and his wife and many of the artisans close to this. Massimo and Silvia (Enzo's children) more or less grew up in the factory. The knowledge and experience gathered here is probably unrivalled in the world. I get all exited just talking about it. smile.gif Many of you know by now that I hold Bonafè very dear!
post #4007 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaves View Post


I think it was very educational for all parties involved! Even though we have worked with Bonafè for years, we still learn new things all the time. They offer so many constructions, version and options. Enzo has been making shoes for something like 70+ years, and his wife and many of the artisans close to this. Massimo and Silvia (Enzo's children) more or less grew up in the factory. The knowledge and experience gathered here is probably unrivalled in the world. I get all exited just talking about it. smile.gif Many of you know by now that I hold Bonafè very dear!

 

Yes, and so do I. I did notice they have a very significant presence in Japan.

Anyway, you're right, I'll not derail the thread further. Lol

post #4008 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacke View Post
 

I just received pictures of my trial shoes from Clematis Ginza.

 

 

 


Looks really nice. Congrats!

post #4009 of 4060

Cross post from the Japanese shoe thread: Enjoyed comparing my pair from Yohei Fukuda to @Stefan88's pair from Marquess/Shoji Kawaguchi today, and decided to take some pics and share. Very nerdy, but might be of interest for some. And we often see these close-ups etc on new shoes, not that often on used ones, which IMO adds an extra dimension (after all this is how the shoes look IRL, they are only new once). Yohei and Shoji are two of the most well renowned bespoke shoemakers in Japan (and in the world, for that matter), who have a lot of similarities between them. They both have trained in England, they have a thing for English shoes from the first half of the 1900's, and they have a very high quality in the making. They are also good friends.

Stefan and I have very similar feet (mine are just a tiny bit wider and shorter) which makes it more relevant. Both are faux full brogues, both chiseled toes, my Yohei Fukuda's in a burgundy aniline calf (don't remember if it's vintage Ilcea or Zonta, we were discussing both), the Marquess' are in dark brown vintage Freudenberg calf. Of course some has do with specifications, and they can do stuff very differently from here, but overall both Stefan and I have used the house style specs, so to speak. Below some thoughts, facts and some very subjective comments.

 

From this angle the last shapes are very similar. Marquess to the left, Fukuda to the right:

 

 

 

Quite sharp chisel on the sides on both shoes:

 

 

 

From this angle the lasts are more different. Marquess to the right has a longer and wider toe, while the Fukuda's are more angled inwards a bit more narrow toe. They could maybe be a couple of millimeters longer IMO, but overall I prefer the shape of the Yohei shoes.

 

 

 

Viewed in profile and they are once again very similar.

 

 

 

Here you see one of the more obvious differences, the fact that Marquess (now to the right) has a seamless heel and hence makes his faux full brogue in two pieces of leather, while Yohei has a back seam and makes the model with three leather pieces. The heel shapes are very similar, they are quite straight on the in- and outside while they tapper at the back (see next pic). Marquess heel is slightly narrower though, mainly due to the fact that he cuts the heel extremely close, closest I've ever seen. The Fukuda's are very tightly cut as well, but the Marquess another mm or so even tigher.

 

 

 

Pattern wise Yohei's back counter goes a little bit higher and shorter. The closing is phenomenal on both shoes. Marquess has a bit thinner heel lifts, but the shape of the heels are as mentioned above very similar:

 

 

 

Shoji/Marquess (now to the left again) has a tighter trimmed sole edge, and also a bit higher SPI of the sole stitching (12 spi I believe, vs 10 on Yohei's shoe). I think Yohei's welt is a bit cleaner executed though, maybe a bit due to the fact that it's wider and a bit easier to work with. it looks more distinct in it's shapes. This is Yohei's medium sole edge, one can choose to trim it tighter or have it wider, more Italian styled.

 

 

 

So, a look at the underside. Both shoes have very slim waists. Yohei (to the left) has a bit more curved and shorter inside of the waist shape (Stefan's and mine heel to ball length are very similar, so this is directly comparable). Both use quite small rubber top pieces, that are very angled (too much angled for me at least, I wear down the leather on the inside of the rubber piece quite a lot). Both have sunken lulu metal toe plates.

 

 

 

Marquess (to the right) has a small ridge making it almost like a mix between a bevelled and a fiddle waist. Both waists are blind welted, and on the inside they are very thin towards the edge. The shoes from Yohei even more so, it's hard to capture on picture but it's very thin out towards the inside waist edge.

 

 

 

Both makers use a braided reinforcement stitch at the bottom of the lacing opening. Old school stuff, not necessarily any improvement functional wise, but it adds a bit extra touch to things. The leather on Yohei's shoes is nice, but have to say that the vintage Freudenberg really is something extra, so supple and rich.

 

 

 

Here's an interesting feature on the Marquess shoe to the right, where you can see how it has an unlined tongue which is skived very thin towards the edges. Super clean work.

 

 

So, end of story :)


Edited by j ingevaldsson - 9/18/16 at 2:57pm
post #4010 of 4060
REALLY awesome comparison.
post #4011 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgereghty View Post

REALLY awesome comparison.

 

Big thanks!

post #4012 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


Shoji/Marquess (now to the left again) has a tighter trimmed sole edge, and also a bit higher SPI of the sole stitching (12 spi I believe, vs 10 on Yohei's shoe). I think Yohei's welt is a bit cleaner executed though, maybe a bit due to the fact that it's wider and a bit easier to work with. it looks more distinct in it's shapes. This is Yohei's medium sole edge, one can choose to trim it tighter or have it wider, more Italian styled.



There is one big difference which you haven't mentioned so far: one shoemaker (Shoji/Marquess) uses a fudge wheel, while Yohei employs a stitch-marker. The look is quite different, the fudge wheeled welt has a chamfer on the outside, while with the stitch-marker the ridges get cut off abruptly. Now DW will come in singing the praises of the stitch-marker (because he uses it), you might find that welt 'more distinct' but I find it a rather crude method. (I presume the stitch-marked welt is more forgiving if rotary sanding/finishing wheels are employed.)

There is also a geographical divide in Europe: England and France uses the fudge wheel, while in Austria, Hungary and further east, the stitch-marker rules.(Check your Maftei and Kielman shoes.)




Austrian shoe using stitch-marker with about 7 1/2 stitches/inch (or 1/2 Paris Point stitch length)




English-style (actually that shoe is Shoji/Marquess) fudge wheel, showing the typical pyramids. Stitched at about 12 stitches/inch.
post #4013 of 4060
Yohei uses a fudge wheel.
I've asked him in person and he's told me directly.
post #4014 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

There is one big difference which you haven't mentioned so far: one shoemaker (Shoji/Marquess) uses a fudge wheel, while Yohei employs a stitch-marker. The look is quite different, the fudge wheeled welt has a chamfer on the outside, while with the stitch-marker the ridges get cut off abruptly. Now DW will come in singing the praises of the stitch-marker (because he uses it), you might find that welt 'more distinct' but I find it a rather crude method. (I presume the stitch-marked welt is more forgiving if rotary sanding/finishing wheels are employed.)

That's because, as a consumer and someone who doesn't make shoes and doesn't really understand the processes (or want to), you think of it as ornamentation, first and foremost.

As ornamentation, the fudge-wheel method is perfectly fine...as long as it is done with exceeding care (although this forum is rife with examples from high end British houses where it is not done with anywhere near that kind of care.)

AFAIK, the British invented the whole process of stitch pricking...with a stitch prick...and it spread to the continent. The fudge wheel on the other hand, may even be an American invention. And according to Salaman was invented to " 'fake up' the welt to appear stitched." The appearance was "fudged," IOW.

In passing, it might also be noted, that when stitching at 12spi is pricked (or fudged, either one) it looks very different than stitching done at 7spi. And that the softer the welting leather the better it looks when fudged.

And finally, FWIW...and another example of a deep and abiding lack of understanding...the "chamfering" you extol is almost entirely a result of the collices (edge irons) that are used (and the skill in using them) and not the fudge wheel or the stitch prick.

And none of it has anything to do with whether the edge is done with a finishing machine or by hand. In fact some of the old tools (British tools) created a "jigger step'" which visually broke up that chamfering. The modern machine burnishing iron omits the jigger step and imparts a very definite bevel above the wire.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 9/19/16 at 2:08pm
post #4015 of 4060
I could be mistaken...photos are deceiving and never tell the whole story anyway...but the thing I noticed immediately, between the two shoes (and maybe of greater significance than the welt treatment), is that one appears to made of leather that is "struck through" and the other is not.

No comment, no judgement.
post #4016 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I could be mistaken...photos are deceiving and never tell the whole story anyway...but the thing I noticed immediately, between the two shoes (and maybe of greater significance than the welt treatment), is that one appears to made of leather that is "struck through" and the other is not.

No comment, no judgement.

Am interested to hear more about this. icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif As a complete novice, I'm guessing Marquess?
How do we take note and confirm this detail?
post #4017 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsi View Post

Am interested to hear more about this. icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif As a complete novice, I'm guessing Marquess?
How do we take note and confirm this detail?

When I see a nice pair of shoes posted here...or several pairs...I often click on the photo. In the window that opens I then click on "original." Sometimes this opens a larger version of the photo, and sometimes a magnifying glass will replace my cursor. I can then inspect details that are not obvious in the post.

I clicked on the seventh (?) photo in j ingevaldsson's post (the one with the toes side by side) and could see on the toe broguing that there was a white core to the leather on the right-hand shoe. And not...or not as evidently...on the left shoe.

Does it make a difference? I think it does, or at least, all else being equal, I would always prefer to use a struck through leather than one that was not. That said, some very fine leathers are not struck though. I am thinking of Annonay, for example.
post #4018 of 4060

Has anyone tried Bolero of Nagoya? Kinda interested in their country boot range.

post #4019 of 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

Cross post from the Japanese shoe thread: Enjoyed comparing my pair from Yohei Fukuda to @Stefan88
's pair from Marquess/Shoji Kawaguchi today, and decided to take some pics and share. Very nerdy, but might be of interest for some. And we often see these close-ups etc on new shoes, not that often on used ones, which IMO adds an extra dimension (after all this is how the shoes look IRL, they are only new once). Yohei and Shoji are two of the most well renowned bespoke shoemakers in Japan (and in the world, for that matter), who have a lot of similarities between them. They both have trained in England, they have a thing for English shoes from the first half of the 1900's, and they have a very high quality in the making. They are also good friends.
Stefan and I have very similar feet (mine are just a tiny bit wider and shorter) which makes it more relevant. Both are faux full brogues, both chiseled toes, my Yohei Fukuda's in a burgundy aniline calf (don't remember if it's vintage Ilcea or Zonta, we were discussing both), the Marquess' are in dark brown vintage Freudenberg calf. Of course some has do with specifications, and they can do stuff very differently from here, but overall both Stefan and I have used the house style specs, so to speak. Below some thoughts, facts and some very subjective comments.

From this angle the last shapes are very similar. Marquess to the left, Fukuda to

So, end of story smile.gif

Nice comparison. Amazed you got all that down in some hours.
Your chisel toe would be more towards what Marquess' square toe shape toe is like. It's fun to see how the proportions change due to a slight rounding of the edges.

In my opinion, the main difference of the last shape is how Shoji aspires to keep the lines as straight as possible, whereas Yohei cuts in a bit more to acquire his look.
I think they're both great, but for my next pair I may ask for a slightly more rounded chisel.

As for our feet, they are indeed quite similar. I don't have the hallux issues, but do have the three-toes-same-length-issue biggrin.gif I think this makes your last possible to cut in a bit sharper too.

Edit:
The unlined tongue with skived edges is an amazing feat that I had not experienced before Marquess. Very comfortable:
post #4020 of 4060

You guys make this forum worth with these articles. Thank you very much.

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