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Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread - Page 259

post #3871 of 4063
@ntempleman : ^ Why aren't the eyelets used while the
uppers are being lasted? Doesn't this method leave marks/holes?
post #3872 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Why didn't anyone advise that chap that something better could be done to his shoes?







That "restoration" is hardly 'weird and wonderful', just downright weird!

You aren't impressed that they can turn calf into crocodile?
post #3873 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Why didn't anyone advise that chap that something better could be done to his shoes?

It would be lovely to have the opportunity, though I believe that, unfortunately, this gentleman prefers to send his valet over to conduct business!
post #3874 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes Bourne View Post

@ntempleman : ^ Why aren't the eyelets used while the
uppers are being lasted? Doesn't this method leave marks/holes?

Depends on what the firm or customer prefers. Whipping the facings can give a firmer hold than lacing them up as laces stretch, and avoids leaving an impression on the tongues. You are left with some little holes, but these should be covered by the laces in use.

I've seen a closer attach a piece of card or tape to connect the facings, using the existing stitch holes along the edge to sew through so that once removed you could barely notice. I suppose removing it on s finished shoe would be a pain, otherwise more would do it.
post #3875 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post


It would be lovely to have the opportunity, though I believe that, unfortunately, this gentleman prefers to send his valet over to conduct business!


I think he`s seen the modern Lobbs, and wouldn't touch them with a bargepole! Cant blame him. Bet he really wants a Marquess or Murata, but that wouldn't do down well!

post #3876 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Depends on what the firm or customer prefers. Whipping the facings can give a firmer hold than lacing them up as laces stretch, and avoids leaving an impression on the tongues. You are left with some little holes, but these should be covered by the laces in use.

I've seen a closer attach a piece of card or tape to connect the facings, using the existing stitch holes along the edge to sew through so that once removed you could barely notice. I suppose removing it on s finished shoe would be a pain, otherwise more would do it.

I think I've seen a picture of a piece of cardstock inserted between the tongue and facings (or was it on top of the facings?), but don't remember how the facings were pulled together on the shoe.
Edited by Wes Bourne - 7/25/16 at 4:23pm
post #3877 of 4063
I could be mistaken but I seem to recall seeing a pair of Bestetti's in process where the lining itself bridged the gap between the facings--no laces, no whipping needed. Not sure how it is accomlished in detail but it seemed like a good solution.

Sometimes I'll throw a thin piece of lining in between the faces and the tongue. And I generally use a short discarded piece of waxed end in lieu of laces, so there's less stretch.

As a maker, the bigger question...esp. on oxfords...is if a maker is fitting up the last to the measurements from the foot, does he last with the facings closed or open? If closed and the measurements on the last are exact, the facings will almost invariably close down too tight on the foot (too close together) and leave no room for further adjustment over the course of a year or two.

If he lasts with the facings open, then the facings can take on a curvature that is not pretty (unless additional precautions are taken to ensure that the facing edges remain straight).

On the other hand, some makers will fit the last up under girth...relative to the foot...and last the shoes with the facings butted right up to each other. These always look straight on the last as well as on the foot. And if the measurements on the last are accurately under-girth will almost guarantee that the shoes lace up properly...even over a long period of time.
post #3878 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I could be mistaken but I seem to recall seeing a pair of Bestetti's in process where the lining itself bridged the gap between the facings--no laces, no whipping needed. Not sure how it is accomlished in detail but it seemed like a good solution.

Sometimes I'll throw a thin piece of lining in between the faces and the tongue. And I generally use a short discarded piece of waxed end in lieu of laces, so there's less stretch.

As a maker, the bigger question...esp. on oxfords...is if a maker is fitting up the last to the measurements from the foot, does he last with the facings closed or open? If closed and the measurements on the last are exact, the facings will almost invariably close down too tight on the foot (too close together) and leave no room for further adjustment over the course of a year or two.

If he lasts with the facings open, then the facings can take on a curvature that is not pretty (unless additional precautions are taken to ensure that the facing edges remain straight).

On the other hand, some makers will fit the last up under girth...relative to the foot...and last the shoes with the facings butted right up to each other. These always look straight on the last as well as on the foot. And if the measurements on the last are accurately under-girth will almost guarantee that the shoes lace up properly...even over a long period of time.

I've done both methods -- last to measure and last 1/4" under at the top of the facings. I am inclined now to do the latter, but then you need to remember you've done it that way! Moreover, if you do a derby, you need to add a build up to the last if you want to close the facings parallel and have them parallel when worn.

Bestetti does seem to close with the lining bridging the cone; it is impressive. Not sure I could even begin to imagine doing it that way.
post #3879 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

I've done both methods -- last to measure and last 1/4" under at the top of the facings. I am inclined now to do the latter, but then you need to remember you've done it that way! Moreover, if you do a derby, you need to add a build up to the last if you want to close the facings parallel and have them parallel when worn.

Bestetti does seem to close with the lining bridging the cone; it is impressive. Not sure I could even begin to imagine doing it that way.

I have done it both ways as well and for reasons that go way back and deep in my Traditions I am leaning more and more towards making the last exactly the same as the foot and lasting with the facings where I want them to be when worn. I don't know how others do it but I had to more or less "invent" ((probably invented many times before) a technique to lace them with the facings straight and yet a cm apart at the top (oxfords).

But I make some ankle high shoes...like jodhpurs and chelseas...that have no laces and which I want to be snug and exact--like a pull-on boot would be. And once I get a last approved by the customer I want to be able to use that last for as many styles of shoe as I can without having to mess with the fit over and over again.

But like I said, I've gone back and forth and may well go back again.

As for the Bestetti's...the only thing I can think of is that he's blocking the liners and closing the uppers on the lining without cutting the facings free. I may be wrong but I do a lot of blocking and that just seems like an obvious solution.
post #3880 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

It would be lovely to have the opportunity, though I believe that, unfortunately, this gentleman prefers to send his valet over to conduct business!

I'm pretty sure he doesn't wear those with his kilt.
post #3881 of 4063
^^^That's interesting, never thought about Bestetti's solution before and that you can do it like that. Went back and checked pics of one of my pairs being made and saw it:

25.jpeg

I know that on one shoe there was some excess lining left down in the bottom of the opening of the facings, so that might be one con with that solution, that it can be a bit of a struggle to get it neat there.
post #3882 of 4063
Trimming that lining neatly after making will always be an issue, as will cutting the lining without damaging the tongue.
post #3883 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Trimming that lining neatly after making will always be an issue, as will cutting the lining without damaging the tongue.

Not forgetting punching the eyelets, presumably while the shoe is still on the last (otherwise it would be far too wobbly). You want to get your hole through upper leather and lining, but not trough the tongue. How do you insert something protective (wood, leather or plastic) between facing and tongue when there is virtually no space?

I can see it much better working on a Derby as you can move back the facings to a much greater extend.


"Curiouser and curiouser" cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).
post #3884 of 4063
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Trimming that lining neatly after making will always be an issue, as will cutting the lining without damaging the tongue.

Yeah I can see that, thought it might be even harder to do on a finished shoe instead of a loose upper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Not forgetting punching the eyelets, presumably while the shoe is still on the last (otherwise it would be far too wobbly). You want to get your hole through upper leather and lining, but not trough the tongue. How do you insert something protective (wood, leather or plastic) between facing and tongue when there is virtually no space?

I can see it much better working on a Derby as you can move back the facings to a much greater extend.


"Curiouser and curiouser" cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).

Yeah, especially the bottom eyelets must be tricky.
post #3885 of 4063
Eyelets would be ok, using one of these

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