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Japanese Shoes: Bespoke & RTW Super Thread - Page 250

post #3736 of 4059
I saw your boots at the factory. Looked great!
The guys that makes the attractions-boots are really great.

Here's a picture or two of the pair I picked up from Brass yesterday.


post #3737 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post


Actually again, for a blind welt you hide the welt and the stitches by leaving more of the outsole at the edge and then pull it over the welt covering it completely. You can see it in this post, Meccariello does the common thing and then Hiro Yanagimachi does a blind welt at the waist: http://shoegazing.se/english/2015/11/04/competition-winners-and-answers-of-find-the-difference/
Back in the days when you referred to a bevelled waist, it was a one with a blind welt, nowadays it's just the rounded shape.

your comparison is a
joke
did you even read
meccariello;s instagram
where you took
teh photo
????
it shows teh work
for his upcoming
machine welted
argentum rtw shoe

and you said
it was his top
end
aurum
??

and you compared
his low end
machine made
shoe to a
handwelted
yanagimachi shoe
??
why
??
why not compare
a real handwelted
aurum
??


have you seen
how meccariello;s
aurum handwelted shoe
is made
how he makes his
blind waist
???

i;ve seen it
when he made
my last suede
adelaide
and his process
is similar to the
carreducker mentioned
by @chogall

his argentum rtw
waist is different
of course it is
being one third of his
aurum price

yanagimachi pre-prepares
his welt
(trimmed at teh waist)
before inseaming
and he also pre-prepares
teh sole.
(click for linky goodness)

2hgqov4.jpg

zstog3.jpg

other makers
do it differently
what i saw
is meccariello
shapes teh welt
after inseaming
and skivves teh
sole at teh waist
after stitching
then he
turns it over
post #3738 of 4059

What a coincidence Stephan88! I have the same boots,and they wear great over time. Enjoy!

post #3739 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post


your comparison is a
joke
did you even read
meccariello;s instagram
where you took
teh photo
????
it shows teh work
for his upcoming
machine welted
argentum rtw shoe

and you said
it was his top
end
aurum
??

and you compared
his low end
machine made
shoe to a
handwelted
yanagimachi shoe
??
why
??
why not compare
a real handwelted
aurum
??


have you seen
how meccariello;s
aurum handwelted shoe
is made
how he makes his
blind waist
???

i;ve seen it
when he made
my last suede
adelaide
and his process
is similar to the
carreducker mentioned
by @chogall

his argentum rtw
waist is different
of course it is
being one third of his
aurum price

yanagimachi pre-prepares
his welt
(trimmed at teh waist)
before inseaming
and he also pre-prepares
teh sole.
(click for linky goodness)

2hgqov4.jpg

zstog3.jpg

other makers
do it differently
what i saw
is meccariello
shapes teh welt
after inseaming
and skivves teh
sole at teh waist
after stitching
then he
turns it over

 

Yes, the picture included in the picture contest was an Aurum shoe. The pictures of the making was of an Argentum shoe though, and I could have written that out clearly, have made that now. However it wasn't meant to be a direct comparison stating that Mecceriello did something bad, it was a picture contest showing an example of how things that look quite similar can be made in different ways. Meccariello's shoes, even the Aurum line, is cheaper than Hiro Yanagimachi's shoes when made with a bevelled waist. When it comes to Aurum when I inspected one of those I'm quite certain that it wasn't a blind welted waist (still nice though), the Aurum shoe in the contest pic doesn't have one, and looking at this pic here (of an Aurum making) it doesn't look that way either: https://www.instagram.com/p/49uHJQRA2U/?taken-by=a.meccariello . Maybe he did something special on your shoe?

post #3740 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMarch View Post

@DWFII
Could I just check, what is the technique used for a blind welt?
I fear I might have been misguided with regards to what I'd thought it was.

Hell I don't know...how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I know that's strange coming from me...me who insists on proper shoemaking terminology. But in this case I can't sort it out.

I personally I use a bit of both techniques when I do a beveled waist. I cut the holdfast deeper into the center of the insole and I leave a little extra width on the outsole which I turn it upwards to cover the edge of the welt.

But I do other sub-techniques here as well to thin the outsole along that edge without damaging or breaking the grain surface of the outsole and to ensure that the seam through the waist is strong.

Having said that, there are times when a shoemaker will want to hide the welt entirely. Make the shoe look like it has no welt or is cement construction, without forfeiting the quality and integrity of an inseamed shoe. Then the best...maybe only...way to do it is to move the holdfast inward all the way around the insole. I have never seen the edge of the outsole rolled up over the welt on such work.

I don't know of any other term for this but "blind welt."

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 3/21/16 at 5:56am
post #3741 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

Yes, the picture included in the picture contest was an Aurum shoe. The pictures of the making was of an Argentum shoe though, and I could have written that out clearly, have made that now. However it wasn't meant to be a direct comparison stating that Mecceriello did something bad, it was a picture contest showing an example of how things that look quite similar can be made in different ways. Meccariello's shoes, even the Aurum line, is cheaper than Hiro Yanagimachi's shoes when made with a bevelled waist. When it comes to Aurum when I inspected one of those I'm quite certain that it wasn't a blind welted waist (still nice though), the Aurum shoe in the contest pic doesn't have one, and looking at this pic here (of an Aurum making) it doesn't look that way either: https://www.instagram.com/p/49uHJQRA2U/?taken-by=a.meccariello . Maybe he did something special on your shoe?

did you read
what i wrote
??
Quote:
Originally Posted by T4phage View Post

......
what i saw
is meccariello
shapes teh welt
after inseaming
and skivves teh
sole at teh waist
after stitching
then he
turns it over

he shapes
teh welt
skivves
the sole
after stitching
post #3742 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Hell I don't know...how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I know that's strange coming from me...me who insists on proper shoemaking terminology. But in this case I can't sort it out.

I personally I use a bit of both techniques when I do a beveled waist. I cut the holdfast deeper into the center of the insole and I leave a little extra width on the outsole which I turn it upwards to cover the edge of the welt.

But I do other sub-techniques here as well to thin the outsole along that edge without damaging or breaking the grain surface of the outsole and to ensure that the seam through the waist is strong.

Having said that, there are times when a shoemaker will want to hide the welt entirely. Make the shoe look like it has no welt or is cement construction, without forfeiting the quality and integrity of an inseamed shoe. Then the best...maybe only...way to do it is to move the holdfast inward all the way around the insole. I have never seen the edge of the outsole rolled up over the welt on such work.

I don't know of any other term for this but "blind welt."

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

Thanks for clarifying. 

Seems like the outsole stitching on such a pair would be difficult as hell!

post #3743 of 4059
Meccariello waist treatment in JI's link does look like blind welting beveled waist. The stitching looks different than regular outsole stitching and there were already very little welt margins left outside of the insole/waist.

I never handled AM shoes in person so i couldn't cite them as examples.
post #3744 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Hell I don't know...how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? I know that's strange coming from me...me who insists on proper shoemaking terminology. But in this case I can't sort it out.

I personally I use a bit of both techniques when I do a beveled waist. I cut the holdfast deeper into the center of the insole and I leave a little extra width on the outsole which I turn it upwards to cover the edge of the welt.

But I do other sub-techniques here as well to thin the outsole along that edge without damaging or breaking the grain surface of the outsole and to ensure that the seam through the waist is strong.

Having said that, there are times when a shoemaker will want to hide the welt entirely. Make the shoe look like it has no welt or is cement construction, without forfeiting the quality and integrity of an inseamed shoe. Then the best...maybe only...way to do it is to move the holdfast inward all the way around the insole. I have never seen the edge of the outsole rolled up over the welt on such work.

I don't know of any other term for this but "blind welt."

edited for punctuation and clarity

I thought Mrsan calls it German welt on his shoemaking blog. Whereas Posh, a German maker, calls it blind welt.

In my not a shoemakers opinion, moving holdfast inwards is the key feature, and various things could be done after the sewing to shape the outsole to hide the stitching, including knocking it up, carving the edges, etc.

What kind of stitching do you use around beveled waists? Tight spaces and big risk of needles damaging the uppers! It's quite mind boggling what good makers can do!
post #3745 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


In my not a shoemakers opinion, moving holdfast inwards is the key feature, and various things could be done after the sewing to shape the outsole to hide the stitching, including knocking it up, carving the edges, etc.

Well, you're not going to hide the welt or the stitching very well unless the holdfast is moved inward from the edge somewhat more than the width of the proposed welt. It is the fact that the welt is tucked entirely under the insole that makes it "blind."
Quote:
What kind of stitching do you use around beveled waists? Tight spaces and big risk of needles damaging the uppers! It's quite mind boggling what good makers can do!

Tight spaces, yes, but hardly any risk of damaging the upper if you know what you're doing. And if you eschew needles--a boar's bristle (or a nylon facsimile) cannot damage the uppers. Then too, such work is generally done with a square awl that is driven from the welt side, any conscientious maker with eyes to see can usually steer the awl clear of the upper. It's not a particularly easy task but it's not all that dangerous either.

If I'm stitching at 12spi in the forepart, I open up to 5spi in the waist. This is, AFAIK, Traditional for a beveled waist for several reasons--if the outsole is thinned in the waist area, longer stitches ensure that the seam will be stronger and not rip out. Also on a beveled waist, the stitches are ostensibly hidden under the edge of the insole and thus don't need to be so close together.

PS...I call trial shoes "fitter's models." It's a good term --clear concise and understandable--but I'm pretty sure it's not the proper or Traditional terminology. In the same vein, I personally think "blind welt" is better than "German Welt" simply because it defines itself. Unless the Germans invented the technique, they've got no call on it.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 3/21/16 at 12:19pm
post #3746 of 4059
Thread Starter 
Just came back from Japan and from meeting with Murata-san aka Main-d'or for the delivery of my second pair, a black plain-toe derby.
I was really satisfied with the round toe last for which Murata-san made my first pair (brown adelaide brogues oxford), so I was confident that it would look great on a simple, classic 'plain' toe.

A lot of folks in the industry (in Japan) consider him one of the best, if not the best, maker around. His styling and last designs were more polarised in opinions though. Over the years, I think he made efforts to improve the latter and as far as I can see now, he makes lovely round toes that also fits very well. He does everything alone from beginning to the end. He used to also make the trees by himself, now the talented Ide Yosuke makes it.

The shoes take an awful long time to finish, but the making is nothing short of flawless. He finishes all shoes to a presentation-shoes level. Why finish a pair of shoes (that are meant to be worn) to such a nth degree? Not practical, yes, but it it also speaks to Murata san's own principle of delivering his best for all of his creation (heard somewhere that he makes like one or two pairs a month). Admittedly, he doesn't think he is a good businessman. Anyway, the pictures below show the result.

AppleMark
How shoes were delivered when I entered the studio

AppleMark
3 Eyelet Derby. Always wanted a pair, and waited for a long time to find a suitable shoemaker to craft them.

AppleMark
A classic pattern on a lovely round toe last. Came out quite nice.

AppleMark
No one does soles like Main d'or

AppleMark


Yes it will be ruined upon the first walk, but what the heck. Otherworldly sole.

AppleMark
Hollowed shoe trees.

AppleMark
Along with sample shoes.


How fiddled waist should look!


Natural finished sole too

AppleMark
Lovely round toes. The one on the right is the new version with the last tweaked. Getting close to a perfect round.

AppleMark
18 spi on his new sample shoes (different one from above). Not recommended for real world use, he says.


AppleMark


Edited by nutcracker - 3/23/16 at 6:55am
post #3747 of 4059

@nutcracker What is the price range for Main-d'or?

post #3748 of 4059
Nice any price reference for murata san?
post #3749 of 4059
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutcracker View Post

A classic pattern on a lovely round toe last. Came out quite nice.

AppleMark
No one does soles like Main d'or

 

 

gorgeous stuff! where is the channel cut? is it from the side of the sole? 

post #3750 of 4059
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacke View Post

@nutcracker
 What is the price range for Main-d'or?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcl911 View Post

Nice any price reference for murata san?

Main-d'or Bespoke is ¥290,000 JPY. Hollowed shoe trees (or badger tail shoe trees) are extra ¥35,000. ¥325,000 comes out to under $2900 USD.

2 trials. 2nd fitting shoes is fully wearable, and tried on for a month or more.

His atelier is located seriously in the middle of nowhere. Plans are underway for him to do hold trunk shows at a renowned tailor in Ginza.
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