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21 Shot dead at Virginia Tech - Page 9

post #121 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by LabelKing View Post
I was simply saying that people are so quick to call people as Evil thereby implying evil-ness must be a very simple thing to grasp since so many people are under the delusion that they are so apt to distinguish Evil.

Also, my usage of "understanding" was not to symphathize with the instigator; rather, to understand the actions and compulsions of the act and the reasoning, or lack thereof.

Ok, we agree. Indeed, I think the more we understand why people do this shit, the better we will be at being able to identify possible perpetrators before they go on this kind of rampage and give them the help they need.
post #122 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmax View Post
In 2002 a student opened fire at Virginia's Appalachian School of Law, killing the dean, a professor and another student. Three others were wounded in the attack. In the crucial moments after the rampage, a few students moved quickly to try to apprehend the suspect and stop the shooting. One of the students went to his car to retrieve his handgun since the Law School predictively did not allow CCW holders to carry on school property. Once he retrieved his handgun he confronted the shooter and forced him to surrender his weapon.

You may find it incredible, based on your line of questioning, but some states allow students to keep guns on campus (Utah since 2004). Can you find media reports on the" innocent people would be killed through pure accidents, drunken/drugged behavior, post-adolescent impulsiveness, etc." since Utah allowed guns on campuses that were caused by students with CCW permits?

Maybe, but I have better things to do with my time. Arguing general conclusions from specific instances -- especially events like this -- is silly.
post #123 of 458
I have to say, I find all this talk of tactics and reloading and how he could have shot more, etc, extremely distateful.

Also, it boggles my mind how uninformed and clueless some of these poor kids were. One student was quoted in the NY Times as saying she heard about the shooting and went to class, only to come to her senses when she got to the building and it was surrounded by men with rifles...
post #124 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
So with it's regular magazine of 17 and, is this right, semi-automatic ability, it's used for what? Can plunking?

I understand the whole "bad guys do bad things" but when you're making weapons that are optimal for shooting people in the head, maybe it's time to ask if we're facilitating these guys.

lefty

Yeah, but in all fairness (and I don't like guns) it's designed not to "˜shoot guys in the head' but for optimum targeting ability and precision. It's designed to hit whatever you want to hit with as much accuracy as possible; that includes a human head.

Jon.
post #125 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS View Post
Yeah, but in all fairness (and I don't like guns) it's designed not to "˜shoot guys in the head' but for optimum targeting ability and precision. It's designed to hit whatever you want to hit with as much accuracy as possible; that includes a human head.

Jon.

there are very very few reasons to use a firearm asside from killing something (or pretending to kill something). there is pretty much no other job taht can't be don't just as well withint something that isn't a gun.
post #126 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by chorse123 View Post
I have to say, I find all this talk of tactics and reloading and how he could have shot more, etc, extremely distateful.

Also, it boggles my mind how uninformed and clueless some of these poor kids were. One student was quoted in the NY Times as saying she heard about the shooting and went to class, only to come to her senses when she got to the building and it was surrounded by men with rifles...

I recall my mother telling me that in Buenos Aires, when I was like 4 or 5, she heard gun shots from the direction we were heading towards, she immediately picked me up and started to run in the opposite direction. At the same time other people in the street were walking faster towards the gunshots...presumably to see where the noise was coming from...

People do very stupid things...

Jon.
post #127 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS View Post
Yeah, but in all fairness (and I don't like guns) it's designed not to "˜shoot guys in the head' but for optimum targeting ability and precision. It's designed to hit whatever you want to hit with as much accuracy as possible; that includes a human head.

Jon.

I get that, but I have to think that the thrill and skill of hitting a target can easily and equally come from a single shot long gun.

lefty
post #128 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
So with it's regular magazine of 17 and, is this right, semi-automatic ability, it's used for what? Can plunking?

I would say that for the vast majority of owners and the vast majority of guns, the most common use is target shooting at paper targets or cans or whatever else. However, the ultimate purpose of a handgun is to destroy what it hits, and I think most people buy them (at least their first one) thinking it will be used as a potential preventative device - as one might buy a fire extinguisher. Some people own guns solely for the fun and competition of target shooting (if golf is fun, then solo target shooting can be fun), or for hunting, and not for protection, but I think the majority of gun owners at least consider [one of] their gun[s] to be a protective device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
I understand the whole "bad guys do bad things" but when you're making weapons that are optimal for shooting people in the head, maybe it's time to ask if we're facilitating these guys.

lefty

Well, keep in mind that most of the weapons that are made for this purpose are made for "professionals" to use - military, police, security, etc. I don't think anyone would disagree that they need them to do their job. Whether civilians should have access to the same amount of firepower is a separate debate, you may have a point, and I'm not interested in starting it especially in this thread.

For example, I'm sure this incident will bring the recently-expired high-capacity magazine ban to the forefront of the news very shortly, if it hasn't happened already.
post #129 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post
there are very very few reasons to use a firearm asside from killing something (or pretending to kill something). there is pretty much no other job taht can't be don't just as well withint something that isn't a gun.

My point is that it was designed for accuracy...there is nothing that will change the fact that a gun designed to shoot well is going to do so...

Jon.
post #130 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmax View Post
In 2002 a student opened fire at Virginia’s Appalachian School of Law, killing the dean, a professor and another student. Three others were wounded in the attack. In the crucial moments after the rampage, a few students moved quickly to try to apprehend the suspect and stop the shooting. One of the students went to his car to retrieve his handgun since the Law School predictively did not allow CCW holders to carry on school property. Once he retrieved his handgun he confronted the shooter and forced him to surrender his weapon.

You may find it incredible, based on your line of questioning, but some states allow students to keep guns on campus (Utah since 2004 for example). Can you find media reports on the" innocent people would be killed through pure accidents, drunken/drugged behavior, post-adolescent impulsiveness, etc." since Utah allowed guns on campuses that were caused by students with CCW permits?

The CNN article says nothing about this, it says he was tackled by three students; no mention of a gun.

"The dean of the law school had been executed in his office and a professor had been executed in his office," said Briggs. "The man then came down the stairs -- before we got there -- and shot four students."

Police said as Odighizuwa exited the building three other students grabbed and subdued him."
post #131 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
I don't know anything about guns. What is a handgun that can shoot 32 rounds in what I assume is rapid succession and reloaded in 2 seconds with another 32 bullets used for? lefty
Looking at the Sigarms P226 9 mm, the standard magazine holds 15 rounds, +1 in the chamber. This was the duty sidearm of the Michigan State Police. They have since changed to the P226 in .40, with a magazine count of 12. besides a personal protection sidearm of law enforcement, this type of firearm is very popular in shooting competitions. The Glock G17 9 mm has a magazine capacity of 17 rounds. Many departments use this as a duty sidearm and they also enjoy a popularity among competitive shooters. There are other manufacturers but this isn't the time for that dissertation. Suffice it to say there are many safe, legal and enjoyable uses for that type of sidearm.
post #132 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by j View Post
Whether civilians should have access to the same amount of firepower is a separate debate, you may have a point, and I'm not interested in starting it especially in this thread.

Okay.

lefty
post #133 of 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post
I'm just saying - as you may have noticed, I have been very strongly against private ownership of firearms, because I think that in most cases a civillian cna't influence the sitution. this is an example of the rare situation taht could have been influenced by an armed civillian. I still don't like the idea. as to the applicability of the middle east situation - keep in mind that this is about the 5th time soemthing like this has happened in the US. there have probrably been 200 attempts at someting like this in israel maybe more. in most cases, the assailetn was killed before he could get his mojo working.
I was not aware of your stance on private ownership of firearms. I guess it's pretty much identical to mine. I agree that this situation might have adverted if there were some armed civilians present, but I would still never support the idea of allowing students to carry guns on my campus. It seems kind of risky and most people wouldn't be skilled enough to take out a well positioned shooter anyways. I keep placing my university in this scenario and am sure the end result would be similar. People are so vunerable in crowded public spaces.
post #134 of 458
Some interesting points raised while I was out.

We had a moment of silence at 5pm here at Dulles, it lasted for 1 minute. I have never seen an airport shut down so fast, everyone stopped, stood up, and waited for a minute. Not one person continued on with their work for that minute.
Goes to show that morality does still exist in this country.

JB
post #135 of 458
United States has several hundred million firearms in civillian hands. As someone already mentioned, the cat is out of the bag, the genie is out of the bottle, you get the idea. Even in American cities that ban or severely restrict civilian gun ownership they could be bought as easily as illegal drugs. People intent on doing harm to their fellow humans would always get the tools they want. The only thing additional gun restrictions accomplish is to disarm potential victims.
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