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The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY,... - Page 52

post #766 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley View Post

At what point did he threaten to shoot himself (or you)?

You know, you can always just block my posts and not have to deal with me. I dare you. I don't know if that will make my threads invisible to you, so you may just have to use willpower there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

Gotcha.

Sorry for the TL / DR but which has the polyester? The new-loomed / smoother stuff that you have or the ruff stuff that I have?


Have you considered a nice end-on-end? An Alumo 120s or 140s? I probably wear that stuff 60% of the time between the two lightest shades - goes with just about anything IMO.

The new-loomed, smooth stuff is 100% cotton. The new-loomed rough stuff, which you have, is part polyester. The old-loomed rough stuff, which T4 has, is supposedly 100% cotton.

I compared my SG chambray to the Alumo 120s end-on-end. I like the look of the chambray better, but could be happy with the Alumo as an alternative. It's obviously nice stuff.
post #767 of 1166
whatever mine is, there are definitely white yarns in the weft.

I don't think you can be definitive about Cantab's because the pic only shows one edge, the white would(could) be in the other direction.

oops NVM, re-checked pic
post #768 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Manton, your stuff is almost certainly the same as mine. It is smooth, full-width, and true chambray (white weft, blue warp), correct? Like I said, Eugene said you brought in stuff the same as mine before.
post #769 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

I just received a swatch of the "old" Simonnot Godard chambray in the mail. Here is old versus new, side-by-side:

oldnewchambray_zps8142d690.jpg

Not even remotely the same kind of shirting. For better or worse, the old-style is clearly much more irregular--both in the weaving and coloration. If you look carefully, the dye density in the blue yarns varies quite a bit. In contrast, the blue yarns in the new-style chambray appear to have taken the dye much more evenly.

Just saw this.

I like the look of the stuff you have (on the right, right?)

I hate the stuff I have (on the left, right?)
post #770 of 1166

And how different are the old and new chambray compared to the current voile http://grunwald-true-style.com/Shirtings.html ?

 

Plus the mind boggles at paying Romentino or Bonfanti prices for a cloth that contains polyester, for a more refined oxford type shirting for business wear, why not get an Oxford in a 2 x 2/50 and 2 x 2/100 yarn count from Acorn or similar?  Or a 2x2/80s http://www.acornfabrics.com/fabrics/skipton-panama-navy ?

post #771 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


You know, you can always just block my posts and not have to deal with me. I dare you. I don't know if that will make my threads invisible to you, so you may just have to use willpower there.

 

Nope, I have no desire to block you. You typically have interesting posts. But I will call you out when you get ridiculous.

post #772 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantabrigian View Post

I hate the stuff I have (on the left, right?)

I believe so, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mactire View Post

And how different are the old and new chambray compared to the current voile http://grunwald-true-style.com/Shirtings.html
 ?

They are fundamentally different kinds of shirting. Voile is open weave, with high twist yarns. Like the fresco of shirting. The idea is to keep you cool by decreasing weight and increasing ventilation. Chambray is a straightforward plain-weave shirting. It would be like regular old poplin if not for the specific colors of its weft and warp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mactire View Post

Plus the mind boggles at paying Romentino or Bonfanti prices for a cloth that contains polyester, for a more refined oxford type shirting for business wear, why not get an Oxford in a 2 x 2/50 and 2 x 2/100 yarn count from Acorn or similar?  Or a 2x2/80s http://www.acornfabrics.com/fabrics/skipton-panama-navy
 ?

Oxford is completely different from chambray. Different weaves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley View Post

Nope, I have no desire to block you. You typically have interesting posts. But I will call you out when you get ridiculous.

Your commentary on my commentary is it's own sort of pollution. Maybe I should block you?
post #773 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

Your commentary on my commentary is it's own sort of pollution. Maybe I should block you?

 

Uh, sure.

post #774 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


They are fundamentally different kinds of shirting. Voile is open weave, with high twist yarns. Like the fresco of shirting. The idea is to keep you cool by decreasing weight and increasing ventilation. Chambray is a straightforward plain-weave shirting. It would be like regular old poplin if not for the specific colors of its weft and warp.

I am starting to think the contrary, that voile and chambray are the same thing in different weights or with different thickness threads.

For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post


They went on to discuss what "chambray" really is. They are both under the opinion it is a matter of weight, not a specific definition pertaining to weave and yarn colors--simply a shirting heavier than voile, but lighter than a typical poplin, and known for having a silky hand and sheen.

Also

From Will's blog when even the SG weaver thought Will wanted the voile when he asked for chambray

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2010/10/lost-in-translation.html
Quote:
After I became a customer of Benjamin Simonnot of the weaver Simonnot-Godard, I told him that I wanted to buy some of his renowned chambray shirting for myself. To which he replied, "No, that would be the voile," or words to the same effect.

These responses from pros in the industry suggest that chambray and voile are at least close cousins, if not variations of the same thing.
post #775 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

I am starting to think the contrary, that voile and chambray are the same thing in different weights or with different thickness threads.

Except, this is blatantly false. People in the trade are not always as precise as you'd think they'd be. The vast majority of Geneva's customers would never think to even utter the word "chambray" when ordering shirts, and chambray is not a typical dress shirting. So, it makes sense that a shirtmaker might not know its exact definition--it isn't really relevant to him. Just ask any car enthusiast who tries to have an informed discussion with a car dealer. Then tell me that people in the trade always know better! I once watched a watch dealer at a high-end watch shop in Manhattan explain that a tourbillion is a feature that means you never have to wind the watch.

Both voile and chambray are plain woven, yes. But voile would not be voile if it didn't have an open weave and a high-twist yarns. Chambrays don't have those two features. Hence, they are different in fundamental ways that don't specifically have to do with weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

From Will's blog when even the SG weaver thought Will wanted the voile when he asked for chambray

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2010/10/lost-in-translation.html
These responses from pros in the industry suggest that chambray and voile are at least close cousins, if not variations of the same thing.

Except, SG itself never called its voile "chambray." Who can say what communications happened between Will and SG that caused the confusion.
post #776 of 1166
Eugene (I don't remember his last name) and Stephen Kempson, both pros, thinking along the same lines. Also Benjamin Simonnot thinking that Will wanted voile when he asked for chambray. Circumstantial evidence perhaps, but the more of it there is, the more unlikely that it is happenstance.
post #777 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorsod View Post

Eugene (I don't remember his last name) and Stephen Kempson, both pros, thinking along the same lines. Also Benjamin Simonnot thinking that Will wanted voile when he asked for chambray. Circumstantial evidence perhaps, but the more of it there is, the more unlikely that it is happenstance.

Why are you relying on circumstantial evidence when you have direct evidence? Look at any piece of chambray. What do they all have in common? They are plain-woven. The weft is always white. The warp is always a single color. Voile, as you know, does not always have that color combination. A piece of chambray with warp and weft in the same color is exactly the same as regular poplin. So, are you also saying voile is just lighter weight poplin?

Raphael once claimed he invented spalla camicia, except he called them "water drop" shoulders and they never caught on. He is in the trade, too.
post #778 of 1166
So why are they consistently confused for one another, even by pros in the field? I suspect there is something else that we are not getting. The story is incomplete.
post #779 of 1166
Thread Starter 
Because chambray is not traditionally a dress shirting. There is much less familiarity with it.

Yet, the physical differences between it and voile are obvious if one really cares to find them. Just examine up-close. One is open-weave, the other is not.

Anyway, Eugene and Kempson were not speaking with any certainty. They were clearly speculating and really didn't know what to make of what I brought in. In fact, Eugene commented on how heavy the shirting is--much heavier than the typical Alumo poplin. So, if that's true, how could chambray possibly be a middleweight cloth between voile and poplin? Makes no sense.

I think the bottom-line is to not make gods out of our tailors. Mariano is as tasteful and knowledgeable on these things as any man I can think of. Yet, there are clearly things he doesn't know or doesn't care to make the distinction between. That doesn't mean the distinctions don't exist. Sometimes we have to do our own legwork.

There's never been an instance where you knew more about something than your tailor, or where he was clearly wrong about it?
post #780 of 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post

There's never been an instance where you knew more about something than your tailor, or where he was clearly wrong about it?

None that I recall. Is it serendipity or selecting the right tailors? Now there was one instance when Tony Gaziano steered me to a shoe design which in retrospect would have been better in the original form. But I wouldn't have known until I completed the project. And it was shoes, not tailoring.
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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › The OneShirt: A Phoenix from the Ashes [4/24/13 UPDATE: A SHIRTMAKER, AN ENGLISHMAN, CHAMBRAY, AND FIRE]