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White Ressentiment, the Poster Child - Page 6

post #76 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Not discounting this at all, but they can also afford tutors. I used to work for an SAT tutor and they could consistently raise a student's SAT score by 50-100 points, even for students that came in with really high scores.

That said, they've had more and better educations in general. And they probably will, on average, do better in college for some combination of biological and socioeconomic reasons.

No doubt there's nature and nurture at work. Google turned up this analysis, which is pretty interesting.


Quote:
IIRC, the age-adjusted correlation between log income and IQ is 0.4: take someone with a log income higher by one standard deviation than average--these days someone with a middle-age-adjusted family income of $100,000-$120,000 rather than $60,000-$80,000--and their IQ is likely to be 0.4 standard deviations (6 points) above average. The individual heritability of IQ is about 0.5: take an individual with a IQ 6 points above average and their children will be expected to have an IQ 3 points above average. SAT scores have a mean of 500, a standard deviation of 100, and a high but not a perfect (0.7) correlation with IQ.

So if we compare people whose parents have an income of $100,000-$120,000 to those with an income of $60,000-$80,000 we would expect to see 1 x 0.4 x 0.5 x 0.7 x 100 = 14 points. The actual jump in the graph Mankiw refers to is twice as large.

The rule of thumb, I think, is that half of the income-test score correlation is due to the correlation of your test scores with your parents' IQ; and half of the income-test score correlation is coing purely from the advantages provided by that component of wealth uncorrelated with your parents' (genetic and environmental!) IQ.

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2009/08/if-you-are-so-rich-why-arent-you-smart.html

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At any rate, it doesn't really matter because SAT scores are such good predictors of college performance. If your goal is actually to give spots at top colleges based on merit, they can't be beat.
post #77 of 440
Average is one the most useful and the most deceiving concepts.
post #78 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by cross22 View Post

Average is one the most useful and the most deceiving concepts.

I find your posts relevant to my interests. On average.
post #79 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

During WWII, my father in law escaped Europe to Cuba, where he lived for several years (say 10). Can my kids claim to be hispanic on college applications in a way that will benefit them? Obviously, they should if it will help them, but they don't have a hispanic surname and are unlikely to have any other hispanic "markers".

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but the answer is almost certainly "no."

This was actually the joke I was making with my last post. MrsG has been through something similar to what you're describing. She's a naturalized American citizen who was born in South Africa, but she's the white daughter or Europeans who moved to South Africa before she was born. She's literally African American, but she's not African American.
post #80 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post

She's literally African American, but she's not African American.

Sorta sounds like the guy who lives at the White House.
post #81 of 440
I dislike AA for many reason and in the case of state schools I think it should be discontinued, but I don't see why people have a problem with private universities doing it, I'm sure they have reason for wanting a certain racial/ethnic/cultural composition and I think its their right to pursue it.
post #82 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpeirpont View Post

I dislike AA for many reason and in the case of state schools I think it should be discontinued, but I don't see why people have a problem with private universities doing it, I'm sure they have reason for wanting a certain racial/ethnic/cultural composition and I think its their right to pursue it.

Well, this is something that happens in healthcare. You can say it's a private company but is it taking Medicare? Medicaid? If so it has revenues from tax dollars. If a private school takes students that accept government student loans it's not really "private" IMO.
post #83 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Well, this is something that happens in healthcare. You can say it's a private company but is it taking Medicare? Medicaid? If so it has revenues from tax dollars. If a private school takes students that accept government student loans it's not really "private" IMO.

Good point and that crossed my mind after I hit submit. But I don't think that is compelling enough for them to have to adopt the same policies as states schools. I think increasing government influence over admission policies even further is a bad route to go.
post #84 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but the answer is almost certainly "no."

This was actually the joke I was making with my last post. MrsG has been through something similar to what you're describing. She's a naturalized American citizen who was born in South Africa, but she's the white daughter or Europeans who moved to South Africa before she was born. She's literally African American, but she's not African American.
Well . . . it is a joke because they have no chance. Had their grandfather been born in Cuba (or if he stayed long enough for my wife to have been born there), they could probably claim to be hispanic, but since he just immigrated there and eventually left, I am sure the answer is no. And as far as I can tell, Hispanic is language and country based, not racial. If you are the purebred descendant of Nazis who escaped to Argentina, you are still hispanic for Affirmative Action programs. To claim African/African American status, I think you need to be black, which is to exclude South African Whites and Kenyan Indians.
post #85 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchausen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Maybe scholastic aptitude is tied to parental income. Oh, but that would suggest that people who make more money have smarter kids, perhaps even that intelligence is inheritable.

That can't be true, can it?

Not discounting this at all, but they can also afford tutors. I used to work for an SAT tutor and they could consistently raise a student's SAT score by 50-100 points, even for students that came in with really high scores.

That said, they've had more and better educations in general. And they probably will, on average, do better in college for some combination of biological and socioeconomic reasons.

This.

The SAT is not a test of intelligence. The SAT is a test of how much you've practiced for the SAT.
post #86 of 440
So why do kids with higher SAT scores get better grades in college?
post #87 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earnest Hemingway View Post

This.

The SAT is not a test of intelligence. The SAT is a test of how much you've practiced for the SAT.

It actually has a very high level of correlation to IQ scores, nobody shows less than .75, most are above .8. Also, discrepancies between income groups on SATs long predate widespread SAT prep. That doesn't mean that the increased access to vocabulary and culture don't impact scores and drive the spawn of the wealthy, they do, but causal relationships have to be causal, and in this case your assertion cannot possibly be. Lame phrases like, " The SAT is a test of how much you've practiced for the SAT" might sound reassuring to the ideological or slow, but the reality is that courses are generally less effective than those who offer them would have you believe, and even if they are effective they can neither describe the size of the gap nor its genesis.
post #88 of 440
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

So why do kids with higher SAT scores get better grades in college?

Umm, the answers should be obvious. 1) Because the SAT might not be a perfect test, but it's certainly not a useless one. 2) Because the same sorts of students who have the resources and the background to prep fully for the SAT also have the resources to get help in college should they need it. Your harping on the correlation between SAT scores and GPA in college begs a huge question: whether college admissions should be solely focused on admitting students who'll get the highest GPAs and have the smoothest academic experiences during their undergrad careers. Perhaps you get all huffy and declare that it's patently obvious that's what colleges should focus on, but from my perspective (as someone who actually teaches at the college level), there are all sorts of other goals at stake. And one of them is the hope of admitting students who might not be immediately prepared because of their backgrounds but exhibit strong potential to succeed in the long run.
post #89 of 440
Guys, you are trying to cast SAT prep as the difference between rich and poor, but SAT prep courses average about 30 points in increase -- statistically insignificant, accounting for basically none of the disparity between rich and poor and less than a few good guesses. Focus on something other than prep courses and their costs if you want to make a cogent argument.
post #90 of 440
The root of this problem was best 'solved' thousands of years ago.

To whom should the flutes go to ?

The best flute players.
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