or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › General › Current Events, Power and Money › White Ressentiment, the Poster Child
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

White Ressentiment, the Poster Child - Page 28

post #406 of 440
By the way, the STEM-> Social Science effect is operating at the mid-to-top end of universities.

Because of cascade effects, a similar aptitude gap is also in effect at the lower end of colleges. This is where, instead of influencing major choice, black kids would not even be accepted to without AA. And it results in a huge dropout rate.

Despite rhetoric to the contrary, there is still a substantial wage premium in the US for completing a college degree, in any major. Where college becomes a terrible value, and saddles students with debt for life with no upside, is when kids drop out.

I'll leave it to you to piece things together as to how the dynamic I'm describing might disproportionately affect black kids.
post #407 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennglock View Post

Other issues aside, and there is plety of space for nuance, AA has gutted STEM achievement in the black community.

There is an entire population of black kids in the country who could handle these curricula if they were placed in classes on equal footing with their peers, in terms of aptitude.

 

Interested to know why you think that. Speaking to civil/environmental, I'm under the impression there's very little room in scaling the curriculum downward in terms of rigor. The classes that weed out students of lower aptitude generally teach very fundamental concepts (statics, for example), you either learn it or you don't. There's no way to make the exams easier without failing to exercise their purpose, and there's only so much you can do with partial credit and curves since the knowledge is so cut and dry. I would guess the problem starts much earlier in how truly inept American undergrads (and my peers) are at math.

 

I'm using anecdotal evidence, but I'm curious if there is a study that shows black students or students who benefited from AA flunk out of engineering at a greater rate than whites/asians.

 

Also curious to hear what people think of AA for selective prep schools.


Edited by accordion - 7/1/16 at 7:40am
post #408 of 440
Selective prep schools are private, affirmative action doesn't apply.
post #409 of 440

but it's practiced, meant to say that probably helps black kids stay in school.

post #410 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

Selective prep schools are private, affirmative action doesn't apply.

Sure it does. They're just more free to apply whatever factors they want, racial or otherwise, however they wish.
post #411 of 440
No.
post #412 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by accordion View Post

Interested to know why you think that. Speaking to civil/environmental, I'm under the impression there's very little room in scaling the curriculum downward in terms of rigor. The classes that weed out students of lower aptitude generally teach very fundamental concepts (statics, for example), you either learn it or you don't.

What you are observing isn't inconsistent with my theory. It's actually one of the mechanisms of mismatch.

To succeed in quantitative majors, a kid needs to possess a minimum level of aptitude and preparedness-- in absolute terms, not just relative to his classmates. The black population capable of meeting this standard are generally recruited into highly selective schools. At the selective schools, though, the quantitative classwork is generally:

a) faster paced and more rigorous than you'd find at the next tier down (e.g. I think Princeton still uses Rudin's Principles of Analysis as their intro Calc textbook!) and, probably more importantly;

b) all these classes employ a fixed grading curve whereby x% of students get As, y% get Bs, z% get Cs.

It's not an environment where you'd be set up for success if you're in the bottom 20% SAT scores of admits.


The Journal of Economic Literature commissioned a survey paper of everything related to this idea of mismatch a few years ago-- there is extended commentary on the STEM literature and bar passage rate:

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/aa.pdf
post #413 of 440
I can assure you that you can be virtually brain-dead and pass the bar exam.
post #414 of 440
Sweet! Sounds like I'm a shoe-in then.
post #415 of 440
That report is something else:
Quote:
More striking is where the black admit distribution lies relative to the white admit distribution [at the University of Michigan law school]. The median black admit had an academic index at the second percentile of the white distribution, and the seventy-fifth percentile of the black admit distribution was at the eighth percentile of the white distribution.

[footnote] If we instead focus on enrollees, the median black enrollee has an academic index less than the first percentile
of the white enrollee distribution. Indeed, no white enrollees had academic indexes that were lower than the 75th
percentile of the black distribution.

...

In both of these cases [University of Virginia and the University of Wisconsin], the median black admit had an academic index that would place him below the first percentile of the white admit at the same school.

But as far as the bar exam goes -- I agree with lawyerdad that it doesn't take much of in terms of intelligence to pass it. It's more of a test of dedication or the ability to memorize a lot of things at once.
post #416 of 440
I didn't take the bar in whatever rectangular shit state you gentlemen did, so I won't speak to your experience.
post #417 of 440
Is the bar conceptually difficult anywhere? My sense is that what Turk said is true pretty much everywhere -- a combination of straight rote memorization and enough familiarity with general concepts and rules to figure out what's relevant and what isn't, which possible answers are plausible and which aren't.

Being smart is certainly helpful as a lawyer, but it's not essential to becoming one.
post #418 of 440
Do they still pay homeless migrants to take the bar in Kansas?
post #419 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

Do they still pay homeless migrants to take the bar in Kansas?

Wait, what? Somebody would have paid me to go through that shit?
post #420 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennglock View Post

The Journal of Economic Literature commissioned a survey paper of everything related to this idea of mismatch a few years ago-- there is extended commentary on the STEM literature and bar passage rate:

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/aa.pdf

 

Thanks, interesting read. This more or less answers my question:

 

Quote:
For example, of those who expressed an initial interest in the sciences, 54% of African American males finished in the humanities or social sciences compared to 8% of white males. Arcidiacono, Aucejo, and Spenner show that this entire racial gap can be accounted for by controlling for academic background: there are no differences in major switching patterns across races once one accounts for differences in academic background.

 

One thing I have to nitpick is that the paper you quoted uses the all-inclusive STEM designation for majors while the study quoted above (Spenner) uses a more specific category of "natural sciences, engineering, economics," which presumably does not include student athlete majors such as animal breeding and nutrition sciences that fall under BLS's definition of STEM majors. The Spenner category is far more indicative of rigorousness and thus of students switching out due to inaptitude. Granted, the black students would still have been mismatched, but for different reasons.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Current Events, Power and Money
Styleforum › Forums › General › Current Events, Power and Money › White Ressentiment, the Poster Child