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White Ressentiment, the Poster Child - Page 10

post #136 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Does anyone have an idea about what goes on at the most selective schools? I would think that if your entire population is fat tail, you could have a class where the non-Asian minority students are more or less equivalent in stats to the rest of the population (especially if the latter's stats are "burdened" by non-tail legacies)? Is that true? I can see that as you move down the selectivity chain, disparities will grow since the populations may have different means, but at the top, the populations should be the same.

Thats not really what happens. I think the number of blacks and hispanics scoring 1500+ on the SAT is quite low. Not enough to make a dent in the class of any elite school- and such a score would allow a kid in either of those groups to write their own ticket.

Many whites and asians with 1500+ SATs are denied from the top schools, however.

Admissions at top schools engineer their classes backward. They start with a rough idea of the percentage class composition fitting into certain categories such as race, athletics, flyover state representation, and a few more. The applicants are then scored relative those buckets.

The son of a potato farmer from utah is not being scored against the asian girl from Massachusetts.
post #137 of 440
I don't think there are enough of them.



[Admittedly that's from 1999]

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind93/chap1/doc/1c8b93.htm
post #138 of 440
Holy Moley!!!

I had no idea.

Is it as bad for the non-math components?
post #139 of 440
At least we can now pinpoint the time period when Asians got so good at math.
post #140 of 440
Back when I was looking at colleges, I was astounded to see quite a few with SAT averages under 1000. The common thread: they were all Historically Black Colleges, and had >90% black students. Pretty unfortunate, especially given the fairly decent history many of those schools had before black students had any other options.


I got in trouble with my wife and one of her friends for making the point that I basically assumed that any student with <1000 SAT score was going to struggled in my class, and was usually proved right. They apparently took that as some kind of value judgement that SAT scores decided your worth as a person and got mad. Not coincidentally, both of them had lower than average SAT scores for their eventual level of educational attainment. There's a big difference between somebody getting into a great score with a 1250 and somebody with <1000 though.
post #141 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsstillmatt View Post

At least we can now pinpoint the time period when Asians got so good at math.
The curve does shift right, but it is mostly a shift up. The charts are a little annoying because they show gross numbers at each skill level, not percentage of test takers. But it does look like Asians are the one group whose actual performance changed, not just the overall number of takers.
Seriously, these numbers are mind blowing. It also makes me think the discussion about colleges is a waste of time. Either find something that works with the very young or don't bother. Or maybe people with low math scores should simply be shifted en masse to study English lit. and post-modernism.
post #142 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Back when I was looking at colleges, I was astounded to see quite a few with SAT averages under 1000. The common thread: they were all Historically Black Colleges, and had >90% black students. Pretty unfortunate, especially given the fairly decent history many of those schools had before black students had any other options.


I got in trouble with my wife and one of her friends for making the point that I basically assumed that any student with <1000 SAT score was going to struggled in my class, and was usually proved right. They apparently took that as some kind of value judgement that SAT scores decided your worth as a person and got mad. Not coincidentally, both of them had lower than average SAT scores for their eventual level of educational attainment. There's a big difference between somebody getting into a great score with a 1250 and somebody with <1000 though.
This makes sense. I wonder if there are really any schools that only "teach to the tails" (I want to trademark that). It may be that even at the most select school, scores above x are a proxy for having the horsepower to succeed, and anything above that is just used for sorting purposes. How much harder is an intro calc class at MIT as compared to a very good but not the very tippy top school like, say, Colgate? (That is probably a dumb question since everyone at MIT took AP calc and placed out of intro calc, but I'll ask anyway.)
post #143 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Back when I was looking at colleges, I was astounded to see quite a few with SAT averages under 1000. The common thread: they were all Historically Black Colleges, and had >90% black students. Pretty unfortunate, especially given the fairly decent history many of those schools had before black students had any other options. .

The unfortunate thing (for the HBCUs) is that they are usually the second choice for smart black kids. For example, here in Tallahassee, we have two major universities - FSU and FAMU. FAMU is historically black (about 90%) and FSU historically white (about 12% black). Black students at FAM are half as likely to graduate in six years (35%) as the black kids at FSU (which has one of the highest black grad rates in the country). I think the accurate implication is that FSU, generally, draws a smarter/better qualified black student than does FAM.

The same issue is reflected in law school. FAM Law has a program designed to maintain the cultural integrity of FAM/provide opportunities for its historical population/keep it black... This program results in 1/3 of FAM's incoming class scoring less than 140 on the LSAT, while UF, FSU, and FIU, combined have admitted one student in the last decade with a sub-140 LSAT. The white schools get the cream of the black crop (confused.gif) so the HBCUs look worse than they really are.
post #144 of 440
Here is some more recent data. No raw numbers, though, just percentiles:

http://media.collegeboard.com/digitalServices/pdf/research/SAT-Percentile-Ranks-by-Gender-Ethnicity-2012.pdf

For black students 600 is the 95th percentile on both math and reading, 650 is the 98th.
post #145 of 440
LOL at Asians. An 800 (out of 800) in math is only 96th percentile.
Get all questions right. Parents still call you lazy.
post #146 of 440
I wonder how they do on the ACT where math is only 1/4 of the test (not counting writing, if there is a writing section on the ACT too these days--I have no idea). Math on the ACT is harder than the SAT, though, IIRC.
post #147 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I wonder how they do on the ACT where math is only 1/4 of the test (not counting writing, if there is a writing section on the ACT too these days--I have no idea). Math on the ACT is harder than the SAT, though, IIRC.

I know ACT has a lower correlation with G, so it is testing something slightly different, but I don't know how the results change.
Edited by itsstillmatt - 3/21/13 at 3:23pm
post #148 of 440
Oh, I guess that explains why they told me to take it instead of the SAT.
post #149 of 440
That has become a strategy around here over the last ten years.
post #150 of 440
So if G is highly heritable, which apparently is a non-controversial statement per the research, and G is highly predictive of SAT score, Obama was right. You didn't build that.
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