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White Ressentiment, the Poster Child - Page 9

post #121 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by erictheobscure View Post

Instead, you argued that the policy of admitting the 10 percent of each graduating class was a racially motivated policy (and you did this with a "c'mon, we all know this is true" appeal). I think this is actually the trickiest point of contention. What if this policy were described as what it really is at face value: a state university's attempt to promote some sort of equality among public high schools against the obvious fact of glaring disparities among neighborhoods and school districts.

Nothing tricky about it. The 10-percent plan's supporters have never been shy about its nature as de facto affirmative action plan. It is dishonest to claim otherwise.
Quote:
Obviously, the article in question doesn't question the 10 percent policy but compares Abigail Fisher to the other candidates who didn't make it in that way.

And my point is that it is, again, dishonest. You are trying to obscure the discrimination by focusing on one small part of a much larger, patently discriminatory admissions process.

As to the issue of whether she would have gotten in not being a focus in the litigation, I expect that's because of the stage of litigation their lawsuit was terminated in--summary judgment. In summary judgment, courts take for granted facts where a jury could go either way, and they don't question claims that are unchallenged by the parties. If UT didn't raise the issue of whether she was actually discriminated against, it wouldn't be before the court and the court would have to assume she was. I have no idea whether they did or not, but from what I've read, it seems to have been brought up as a standing challenge well after the case was appealed. It would be very improper for the supreme court to go into it since it wasn't raised on summary judgment. There is supposed to be a due process right to respond to issues on summary judgment -- in the lower court. But nothing surprises me anymore with the supreme court.
post #122 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Why do you feel it necessary to repeatedly insult the girl in the OP? First of all, it's obvious she really was discriminated against, and second, there's no way she could have brought this lawsuit herself. Either her parents or (much more likely) some special interest group is behind it.

Perhaps I shouldn't have called her a dummy. I just have a rather large distaste for people who complain about being held down, and for people who use the legal system (in my opinion) too much.
post #123 of 440
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

It is really not helpful to obscure the issue, eric, by ignoring the context and pretending "what ifs" are relevant. This policy has a specific origin and context and it is not your "what if". The Texas policy is a racially motivated policy and was instituted when the courts said they couldn't have race quotas. It was an attempt to come up with a facially neutral method of accomplishing what was previously done by racially non-neutral methods. If you want to say motives don't matter, and all that matters is the fact that the policy is facially-neutral, you can. In fact, that is the point of it.

ISWYDT

Point taken--I didn't know anything about Texas House Bill 588 (since I don't really follow educational policy debates even though I should) and had to look it up. I am convinced that the bill was a way to circumvent racial quotas. But I'm still not convinced by ataturk's blanket assertion that the student in question was the victim of discrimination. I don't think she was a victim of discrimination within the group of students who didn't qualify via being in the top 10% of their high school class. Am I thus to assume that had she attended a weaker high school (presumably in a different neighborhood), she would've easily been in the top 10%? I think this goes overboard in believing that innate aptitude (which I don't deny!) leads directly to outcomes. There are any number of reasons that if you had dropped this student into a different high school, she wouldn't have skyrocketed to the top (different teachers, fewer resources, shitty environment, whatever). I don't think this student's failed candidacy is some sort of compelling case for overturning the 10% policy as producing reverse discrimination or whatever.
post #124 of 440
Plaintiffs in suits like this are suing to change the law, not to fix whatever wrong was done to them--she couldn't expect to personally benefit from the lawsuit. There's no way they can turn back time to 2008 and put her in UT. She's about to graduate from another school--that's why there's this standing challenge in the supreme court, arguing that there's no real controversy because she doesn't want money damages and because she's already moved on with her life.

See, courts can't just take up challenges to laws in the abstract. They need a "case or controversy"--a plaintiff with standing to challenge the law. That's her, but she's really acting as a representative of all the people past and future who are harmed. That's why the specific facts of her situation don't really matter except as a formality.
post #125 of 440
Thread Starter 
^ You have convinced me that the case is a lot more interesting than I'd initially assumed. Will be intrigued to see how it plays out.
post #126 of 440
Eric: ^^^
I didn't address the individual student's issue and don't think I have much of an opinion. I think you can probably frame her case either way, based on the facts we know: She was not discriminated against because her grades were not better than x cutoff so she would never have gotten in; or, she was discriminated against because some people got in because they had thumbs on their scale for racial reasons and she didn't. Both are probably correct. If you got rid of the top-ten rule and racial preference for admission, who knows where she would fall out on the scale? I certainly don't and am not motivated enough to try to work it out.
post #127 of 440
Thread Starter 
^ I think I agree with most of that. (My response tended to conflate your comments with ataturk's more emphatic claim.)
post #128 of 440
What is the solution if g factor is so very predictive of academic success and g factor is highly heritable and is also highly predictive of social outcomes?

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post #129 of 440
At bottom that is a political question, but I think all reasonable people would agree that, at a minimum, it would be best to obscure the data.
post #130 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas View Post

Whether or not the g factor actually exists is a matter of much speculation. I've never been able to isolate it.

post #131 of 440
Imatlas: thank you. I felt remiss in letting that go without note and am glad you gave D credit.
post #132 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

What is the solution if g factor is so very predictive of academic success and g factor is highly heritable and is also highly predictive of social outcomes?

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I think you weigh g factors, but shy away, far away, from using any sort of logic that states or implies that "this group of people tend to have a higher g factor, therefore we should prefer them".
post #133 of 440
As a 3rd generation black graduate (well, my dad didn't actually graduate) of UT this is relevent to my interests. My grandfather went to the medical school in Galveston and my dad went to the main campus in '62. Neither of them had any AA to get in. In my grandfather's case they actually made it really hard for him and he wasn't allowed to live on campus. My dad lived in a segregated dorm (yes in 62 in Texas they were still segregated). I lived with a bunch of hippies of all races and slept with many of them.

When I applied in '96 they didn't do the top 10% thing. Basically if you had a SAT score above a certain number you were in automatically. All my (white) friends got in automatically because they did well on the SAT. No letters or anything needed. I fell below that threshold with an 1170. Back then the scales must have been different because that was an above average score but not exceptional. I had to get recommendations and write some bullshit but I got in as did my sister 2 years later. I probably got a bump for being black. My first observations of school were how many asians were there. Austin at the time didn't have a lot of asians and I had never met an Indian person. In my program, Biology, there were a shit ton of both and they all from Houston. Very few black people and most of them were there for the sports.

I don't really have any opinion, just wanted to share.
post #134 of 440
Does anyone have an idea about what goes on at the most selective schools? I would think that if your entire population is fat tail, you could have a class where the non-Asian minority students are more or less equivalent in stats to the rest of the population (especially if the latter's stats are "burdened" by non-tail legacies)? Is that true? I can see that as you move down the selectivity chain, disparities will grow since the populations may have different means, but at the top, the populations should be the same.
post #135 of 440
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopey View Post

Does anyone have an idea about what goes on at the most selective schools? I would think that if your entire population is fat tail, you could have a class where the non-Asian minority students are more or less equivalent in stats to the rest of the population (especially if the latter's stats are "burdened" by non-tail legacies)? Is that true? I can see that as you move down the selectivity chain, disparities will grow since the populations may have different means, but at the top, the populations should be the same.

This is a pretty interesting observation.
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