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Manton's Law

post #1 of 142
Thread Starter 
John O'Sullivan, peripatetic editor and intellectual, once formulated "O'Sullivan's Law". It states that any organization not explicitly right wing will eventually become left-wing. The examples bearing this out are too numerous to mention.

To this I add Manton's Law of SF Threaks: any thread--even if it explicitly excludes certain looks and seeks to promote certain other looks--will in short order become a WAYWRN free-for-all.

Corollary: The more anyone tries to reassert the initial purpose, the more furious and insistent the counter-offensive.
post #2 of 142
The tyranny of the masses always prevails
post #3 of 142
Just wear whatever makes you happy, Manton...

/sarcasm
post #4 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

John O'Sullivan, peripatetic editor and intellectual, once formulated "O'Sullivan's Law". It states that any organization not explicitly right wing will eventually become left-wing. The examples bearing this out are too numerous to mention.

To this I add Manton's Law of SF Threaks: any thread--even if it explicitly excludes certain looks and seeks to promote certain other looks--will in short order become a WAYWRN free-for-all.

Corollary: The more anyone tries to reassert the initial purpose, the more furious and insistent the counter-offensive.

 

This is really a corollary of the law of internet forums (most of them; I can think of a single exception from my experience): everyone talks, nobody listens. Do you really think people actually read AND understand the posts of others? Most internet forums are, for worse, about people listening to themselves talk. It's going to be worse on a forum like this one, because any thread promoting a look is sure to attract the masses who seek validation for their own look (look at me!!!) as opposed to an honest attempt to engage in an intellectual exercise of following an idea.

post #5 of 142
The fix for this is demonstrated by the London Lounge. Create a forum with the goal of promoting discussion and experience, implement rules designed solely to achieve that goal and have an enforcer of the rules.
post #6 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by topos View Post

 

This is really a corollary of the law of internet forums (most of them; I can think of a single exception from my experience): everyone talks, nobody listens. Do you really think people actually read AND understand the posts of others? Most internet forums are, for worse, about people listening to themselves talk. It's going to be worse on a forum like this one, because any thread promoting a look is sure to attract the masses who seek validation for their own look (look at me!!!) as opposed to an honest attempt to engage in an intellectual exercise of following an idea.

 

This.

 

The internet is not inherently "social," despite Mark Zuckerberg's insistence to the contrary. Most internet users fluctuate between two behavioral modes: 1) validation-seeking, and 2) information-seeking.

 

Validation-seeking behavior is, as Topos puts it, "people listening to themselves talk" and hoping for others to give them kudos in some fashion -- be it in the form of agreement, +1, "like," or any other of the numerous forms of noncommittal affirmations that have cropped up in recent years. To someone in this behavioral mode, the other forum members are little more than props, or sounding boards, or laugh tracks.

 

Information-seeking should not be confused with a desire to learn. Information-seeking is really about looking for ideas and inspiration. Cool pictures, interesting outfits, recommendations, etc., that can be appropriated and put to use, intangibly or tangibly. (Information-seeking is to learning what fast food is to nourishment).

 

My point is that a thread on SF -- like a thread on any other forum -- is going to cater, in mixed ratio, to #1 and #2. What Manton is describing is really just the fact that the proportion of people in #1 mode tends to outweigh the proportion of #2s over time. And this is an intrinsic pattern of internet forums. I'd encounter the same trend if I went to, say, a car forum and started a "Post classic cars here" thread, detailing very specifically the velvet rope with which we cordon off "classic" from "contemporary." That rope would be breached in short order, and those doing the breaching would insist that "classic" is a subjective term, i.e., they were born in 1990, therefore, a tricked-out 1996 Accord is "classic."

post #7 of 142
Another sad law of internet forums is that, in time, they almost always take a turn for mediocrity. Fewer quality members, more self-important, post-whoring whippersnappers; fewer quality posts, more inanity and lolcat humor. (I count myself as part of the latter group, so no high horses here, oh no! biggrin.gif)
post #8 of 142
Thread Starter 
I have a 1996 Accord! Not tricked out though.
post #9 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Texas View Post

The internet is not inherently "social," despite Mark Zuckerberg's insistence to the contrary. Most internet users fluctuate between two behavioral modes: 1) validation-seeking, and 2) information-seeking.

Validation-seeking behavior is, as Topos puts it, "people listening to themselves talk" and hoping for others to give them kudos in some fashion -- be it in the form of agreement, +1, "like," or any other of the numerous forms of noncommittal affirmations that have cropped up in recent years. To someone in this behavioral mode, the other forum members are little more than props, or sounding boards, or laugh tracks.

Information-seeking should not be confused with a desire to learn. Information-seeking is really about looking for ideas and inspiration. Cool pictures, interesting outfits, recommendations, etc., that can be appropriated and put to use, intangibly or tangibly. (Information-seeking is to learning what fast food is to nourishment).

100% on the money. (No pun intended. smile.gif)
post #10 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

I have a 1996 Accord! Not tricked out though.

I'm very sorry.

I'm in my mid 20s, and I'm sorry, no way in hell is any mid 90's car "classic". Formless blobs all.
post #11 of 142
There are certain threads that avoid the degradation you mention, but they are all very specific in nature and do not necessarily encourage fit pics or discussion on combination. Rather they focus on the nuts and bolts (fit, material, proportions, etc). Most of the bespoke and fabric threads come to mind.

I find derailment and trolling is inevitable. However, the more specific the topic and the more germane the expertise, the less likely bastardization is afoot.

I'm afraid abstracts like "taste" only invite trouble. No matter how clear or objective the construct is to most.
post #12 of 142
Thread Starter 
It's a very fine car that has served me well over many years.
post #13 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by agjiffy View Post

The fix for this is demonstrated by the London Lounge. Create a forum with the goal of promoting discussion and experience, implement rules designed solely to achieve that goal and have an enforcer of the rules.

Do people actually "enjoy" the London Lounge? Not trying to take a dig at them or the owner but when I used to go on there, besides the incredibly slow place, it was a bunch of people talking/showing off ugly bespoke, with the occassional good one thrown in (Alden's stuff is uniformally good). Very little, if any criticism. As long as its bespoke and the fabric LL, it was good. I found that it wasn't so much a forum but a vehicle for Alden to sell his stuff with a few other posters proselytizing on bespoke but again, a lot of the bespoke there was no better than this forum's WAYWN. So there is good information on there but if only due to the pace, you are more likely to find something useful here.
post #14 of 142
Such is entropy.

Inversely, I wonder what would become of a thread that caters to fops, dandies, and chavs.
post #15 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

Do people actually "enjoy" the London Lounge? Not trying to take a dig at them or the owner but when I used to go on there, besides the incredibly slow place, it was a bunch of people talking/showing off ugly bespoke, with the occassional good one thrown in (Alden's stuff is uniformally good). Very little, if any criticism. As long as its bespoke and the fabric LL, it was good. I found that it wasn't so much a forum but a vehicle for Alden to sell his stuff with a few other posters proselytizing on bespoke but again, a lot of the bespoke there was no better than this forum's WAYWN. So there is good information on there but if only due to the pace, you are more likely to find something useful here.

I enjoy it a great deal. The incredibly slow pace is a natural side effect of creating a forum dedicated to bespoke tailoring. There just that many people that are interested and even fewer who are interested in sharing their experiences on the internet. It's purpose isn't to make money so there is no incentive to have any activity other than that which fosters the purpose of the forum. So the pace is slower.

As for criticism, it is true that members are less likely to critique one another's clothing than on this forum. I think that is because (1) Michael Alden has created a forum where members are expected to respectful of one another, (2) the overall experience level at LL is much, much greater than here so you don't have a few single individuals feigning experience and being thought of as having more expertise and (3) once a certain comfort level is achieved with bespoke tailoring, "good vs bad" is a silly distinction that isn't really made by anyone other than the bespeaker.

That being said, I think there is a great deal of criticism in the sense of discussing different styles and techniques, often in a way that respectfully challenges viewpoints and assumptions.
Edited by agjiffy - 3/7/13 at 8:17am
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