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Skoaktiebolaget – Carmina, John Lobb, Enzo Bonafè, Carlos Santos, Saint Crispin’s, Gaziano & Girling, Rubinacci – Official Thread - Page 1454

post #21796 of 23841
I am totally fine with hand-welted forefoot and Blake waist as long as you don't call it hand-welted and sell it as hand-welted and only let customer discover the fact later. Blake machine is not shoemaker's hand. Period. Some people are willing to pay a premium for the time and effort of handwork, and if a specific term, i.e, hand-welted, implies 270 degree hand-welted, labeling shoes with hand-welted forefoot and Blake-stitched waist shoes is a scam. We cannot control how shoemakers, ex, Riccardo Bestetti also call Blake-stitched waist as hand-welted, in different regions call each specific construction, however a reputable merchant like Skoaktiebolaget should figure it out before they put products on the shelf.

Pegged waist is not comparable to Blake-stitched waist. Although it's still a fast and easier way than somewhat blind hand-welted waist from the perspective of purists, ex, Antonio Meccariello, pegging is done by hand and most important, you can see it and the shoemakers don't hide it.

Think about it, would you like to pay for a pair of Blake-Rapid stitched shoes as much as a pair of hand-welted shoes, all else is equal? If functional integrity, look, and resoling need are the only concern, and nobody want to charge higher price of hand-welting work because customer worship it, why doesn't Bonafe or any shoe maker just make shoes with Blake-Rapid forefoot and Blake waist?

BTW J. Ingevaldsson you may want to work on the possibility of Blake-Rapid forefoot and Blake waist with Italigente if it's not what they are doing?
post #21797 of 23841
I think it must have been a language barrier issue, right? I know our original specs called for a "closely cut welt," and somehow it was interpreted to mean blake stitched waist.

While I would have preferred a true hand welt, Realistically, I am at peace with this other method, and I don't feel like I was intentionally misled. When it's time for a resole in 2026, I will see if Mr Bonafe will convert to a 270 hand stitch.
post #21798 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by asn81gua View Post

.... If functional integrity, look, and resoling need are the only concern, and nobody want to charge higher price of hand-welting work because customer worship it, why doesn't Bonafe or any shoe maker just make shoes with Blake-Rapid forefoot and Blake waist?

BTW J. Ingevaldsson you may want to work on the possibility of Blake-Rapid forefoot and Blake waist with Italigente if it's not what they are doing?

 

I understand your frustration. but customers hardly worship handwelting, considering prices for GYW rtw top end are often more than two/three times that of bonafe (G&G, EG, JLP)

 

I have a similarly constructed pair from another italian maker (HW forefoot, blake waist), and they've worn pretty well over the years. But yes, the lack of disclosure/translation is perhaps unfortunate.

post #21799 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by asn81gua View Post

I am totally fine with hand-welted forefoot and Blake waist as long as you don't call it hand-welted and sell it as hand-welted and only let customer discover the fact later. Blake machine is not shoemaker's hand. Period. Some people are willing to pay a premium for the time and effort of handwork, and if a specific term, i.e, hand-welted, implies 270 degree hand-welted, labeling shoes with hand-welted forefoot and Blake-stitched waist shoes is a scam. We cannot control how shoemakers, ex, Riccardo Bestetti also call Blake-stitched waist as hand-welted, in different regions call each specific construction, however a reputable merchant like Skoaktiebolaget should figure it out before they put products on the shelf.

Pegged waist is not comparable to Blake-stitched waist. Although it's still a fast and easier way than somewhat blind hand-welted waist from the perspective of purists, ex, Antonio Meccariello, pegging is done by hand and most important, you can see it and the shoemakers don't hide it.

Think about it, would you like to pay for a pair of Blake-Rapid stitched shoes as much as a pair of hand-welted shoes, all else is equal? If functional integrity, look, and resoling need are the only concern, and nobody want to charge higher price of hand-welting work because customer worship it, why doesn't Bonafe or any shoe maker just make shoes with Blake-Rapid forefoot and Blake waist?

BTW J. Ingevaldsson you may want to work on the possibility of Blake-Rapid forefoot and Blake waist with Italigente if it's not what they are doing?

 

I agree on most aspects, except that Antonio does not routinely peg his shoes at the waist. 

When he calls something a handwelt, it's a 270 deg handwelt. 

 

In this instance, I do not know who is at fault, if there is anyone at fault at all. Probably none. 

At the very least, I do not think there was any intentional deception on anyone's part. 

 

I agree, a blake stitched waist / hand welt forepart is not equivalent to a handwelted shoe. 

If I'd wanted a blake waist, I'd have asked for a blake waist. 

 

Am I happy with the situation? Not really. 

But what can I do.... the orders were placed, money was paid, SkoaB says the orders are beyond the point of reversal / change. And no alternative was offered. 

That said, they are a respected merchant and have always been more than fair to me. The least I can do is to honour my order. 

 

In some ways, I feel responsible and apologetic for the people involved in the GMTOs where "Rombe" waist was indicated. 

At that time, I'd suggested this feature based on the description that this would be a rounded waist...... I had no illusions it would be as well executed as Yohei Fukuda's blind welt, but neither was I told that it was not hand welted. At that time, I only had pictures, and someone's word, to go on. I believed (and will continue to believe) what the merchant has told me. Because I believe in their integrity. 

 

Once again, to the people, shoe friends, who might feel disappointed with their shoes, I am deeply sorry, and I would never, ever suggest to anyone, something I would not wear myself. 


Edited by ThunderMarch - 5/20/16 at 9:17pm
post #21800 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMarch View Post
 

 

I agree on most aspects, except that Antonio does not routinely peg his shoes at the waist. 

When he calls something a handwelt, it's a 270 deg handwelt. 

 

In this instance, I do not know who is at fault, if there is anyone at fault at all. Probably none. 

At the very least, I do not think there was any intentional deception on anyone's part. 

 

I agree, a blake stitched waist / hand welt forepart is not equivalent to a handwelted shoe. 

If I'd wanted a blake waist, I'd have asked for a blake waist. 

 

Am I happy with the situation? Not really. 

But what can I do.... the orders were placed, money was paid, SkoaB says the orders are beyond the point of reversal / change. And no alternative was offered. 

That said, they are a respected merchant and have always been more than fair to me. The least I can do is to respect my order. 

 

In some ways, I feel responsible and apologetic for the people involved in the GMTOs where "Rombe" waist was indicated. 

At that time, I'd suggested this feature based on the description that this would be a rounded waist...... I had no illusions it would be as well executed as Yohei Fukuda's blind welt, but neither was I told that it was not hand welted. At that time, I only had piuctures, and someone's word, to go on. I believed (and will continue to believe) what the merchant has told me. Because I believe in their integrity. 

 

Once again, to the people, shoe friends, who might feel disappointed with their shoes, I am deeply sorry, and I would never, ever suggest to anyone, something I would not wear myself. 

well, not really a bad thing to us as we all learn something from this issue. Also, can't agree more about the integrity of Skoaktiebolaget! 

post #21801 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMarch View Post

I agree on most aspects, except that Antonio does not routinely peg his shoes at the waist. 
When he calls something a handwelt, it's a 270 deg handwelt. 



I mean Antonio only considers 270 degree hand-welting as hand-welting and he is a purist.
https://www.instagram.com/p/6aaVspxA4L/
https://www.instagram.com/p/6aaFjOxA3q/

On the other hand, Saint Crispin, Enzo Bonafe, Riccardo Bestetti, etc. call their shoes hand-welted even if the waist are pegged or Blake-stitched.
post #21802 of 23841
Don't apologize, you didn't know. Not on you at all. I always assumed Enzo was handwelted unless you specifically asked for Blake
post #21803 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyinsanfran View Post

I understand your frustration. but customers hardly worship handwelting, considering prices for GYW rtw top end are often more than two/three times that of bonafe (G&G, EG, JLP)

I have a similarly constructed pair from another italian maker (HW forefoot, blake waist), and they've worn pretty well over the years. But yes, the lack of disclosure/translation is perhaps unfortunate.

I bet a pair of hand-welted (G&G, EG, JLP) costs more than a pair of Goodyear-welted (G&G, EG, JLP), all else equal.
post #21804 of 23841
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asn81gua View Post

I mean Antonio only considers 270 degree hand-welting as hand-welting and he is a purist.
https://www.instagram.com/p/6aaVspxA4L/
https://www.instagram.com/p/6aaFjOxA3q/

On the other hand, Saint Crispin, Enzo Bonafe, Riccardo Bestetti, etc. call their shoes hand-welted even if the waist are pegged or Blake-stitched.

Bonafè mainly does hand welted for us. Only a very small percentage of the shoes they do for us is Blake. Even fewer are made with the "Japanese" waist (Blake / hand welted combo).
post #21805 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannefalk View Post
 

Psst! Some new styles just launched: 

 

Carlos Santos:

 

Carlos Santos 10007 in Coimbra Patina

 

 

Is this replacing the Black one that I no longer see on your site? That would be disappointing? 

post #21806 of 23841
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vriche View Post

Is this replacing the Black one that I no longer see on your site? That would be disappointing? 

This is replacing the Coimbra Adelaide which is now out of stock. The black version of the above shoe has been ordered for a restock and will be part of our permanent CS stock.
post #21807 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaves View Post


This is replacing the Coimbra Adelaide which is now out of stock. The black version of the above shoe has been ordered for a restock and will be part of our permanent CS stock.

That's good news, thanks!

post #21808 of 23841

X-Post from the Shell Cordovan Thread

 

You already know...

photo IMG_0712_zpspktvsxb7.jpg

 

Happy Sunday!

post #21809 of 23841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaves View Post

This is replacing the Coimbra Adelaide which is now out of stock. The black version of the above shoe has been ordered for a restock and will be part of our permanent CS stock.
Patrick, any chance the algarve wingtip bal makes a comeback anytime soon?
post #21810 of 23841
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchidiot View Post

Patrick, any chance the algarve wingtip bal makes a comeback anytime soon?

This particular style will not be restocked any time soon, at least not in this colour. I'm surprised it did not sell better, one of my favourite make ups this season from CS.
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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Skoaktiebolaget – Carmina, John Lobb, Enzo Bonafè, Carlos Santos, Saint Crispin’s, Gaziano & Girling, Rubinacci – Official Thread