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Skoaktiebolaget – Carmina, John Lobb, Enzo Bonafè, Carlos Santos, Saint Crispin’s, Gaziano & Girling, Rubinacci – Official Thread - Page 1031

post #15451 of 24880

I think it's pretty obvious that the expected 3 months delivery time was in normal business times. Let's face it, an MTO is extremely ineffective for the factory compared to a series of shoes, and much more time consuming. Before, Bonafe mostly did it as a courtesy, but with the MTO campaign Skoaktiebolaget ran (and successfully so), their order books must have been filled up, making the expected 3 months impossible to keep. I'm sure they've learned a lot through this. There's a reason other makers has a higher surcharge for one-pair orders. 

post #15452 of 24880
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan88 View Post

I think it's pretty obvious that the expected 3 months delivery time was in normal business times. Let's face it, an MTO is extremely ineffective for the factory compared to a series of shoes, and much more time consuming. Before, Bonafe mostly did it as a courtesy, but with the MTO campaign Skoaktiebolaget ran (and successfully so), their order books must have been filled up, making the expected 3 months impossible to keep. I'm sure they've learned a lot through this. There's a reason other makers has a higher surcharge for one-pair orders. 

Yes, I agree. We did however send a note out to all participants that we would look at a 4 month delivery time instead of the usual 3 but for some pairs it's been more.

Again, I sincerely apologise for the delays. I believe we could have been more clear in our communication and we will also have to learn from this experience.

It's very hard to find a manufacturer with a spotless delivery record, some are more notorious than others, but as has been mentioned earlier here by Bonafè clients who can testify to it, with Bonafè it's very unusual with delays. I think you can echo this with your experience @Stefan88
post #15453 of 24880
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacafotos View Post

Really surprised we haven't seen burgundy Utah Galways. I'm so curious how it looks like in the wild (not just from a swatch).

 

I Think about this MTO, but order Dover in Burgundy Utah Calf, because already have Galway on Brown utah Calf.

But really want to see how to looks Burgundy utah Galway

post #15454 of 24880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaves View Post

Yes, I agree. We did however send a note out to all participants that we would look at a 4 month delivery time instead of the usual 3 but for some pairs it's been more.

Again, I sincerely apologise for the delays. I believe we could have been more clear in our communication and we will also have to learn from this experience.

It's very hard to find a manufacturer with a spotless delivery record, some are more notorious than others, but as has been mentioned earlier here by Bonafè clients who can testify to it, with Bonafè it's very unusual with delays. I think you can echo this with your experience @Stefan88

Indeed. I find the Bonafes a pleasure to deal with. It's a small manufacturer with limited production capacity. You simply cannot tell a manufacturer like this to have an MTO ready by this and that time, only to have it cancelled if one thinks it has taken too long. The leathers may have been cut at an early stage, but production takes time. For a full series of hand sewn shoes, it certainly takes a lot longer than I think many here expect. Imagine doing the same amount of shoes only with very specific leathers, colours, soles, and other specifications unique to each and every shoe.

At the same time, Bonafe supplies a large number of other stores and brands around the world, that may have orders in long before the 1XX MTOs came in. I'm currently in Japan, and I see EB in stores all over here.

I'd say being able to be so specific when it comes to models, details, and even slight adjustments to improve fit, to the price offered is very unique and definitely worth the wait and the occasional delay.
post #15455 of 24880
@Stefan88 It cannot be a favour to me if I have paid a deposit in order to receive a finished product. Had it been so much trouble for them, they could have refused my order, but they decided to take my money and leave a job undone while they went on vacation. In the time I have waited for them to arrive, I have purchased a pair of shoes from a maker (I have the impression he is a one man show), and he delivered my shoes within three months. My friend also bought a pair of his RTW shoes in Japan as well, and yet he has been very prompt in his emails to me. He also sent me several follow up emails after I received the shoes. Had I known that EB had no intention of meeting their obligations within the represented time frame of 3 months, I would not have put in my order to begin with, but no indication of this had been given to me. I wish I found out about him before I wasted my money on the EBs. With the indolence that they have displayed, I do not have any confidence that the shoes will turn out well at all.

I was not part of and was not aware of the January campaign. Hence I did not receive any email about a 4 month delivery time instead of the usual 3. In any case, unless the extended delivery time was brought home to me before I had placed my order or accompanied by some sort of discount that I had accepted, the fact that an email was sent out would not detract from anything I have said. The large volume of orders that they had received was not made known to me when I placed my order.

In any case, six months is still more than four months.
post #15456 of 24880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan88 View Post


Indeed. I find the Bonafes a pleasure to deal with. It's a small manufacturer with limited production capacity. You simply cannot tell a manufacturer like this to have an MTO ready by this and that time, only to have it cancelled if one thinks it has taken too long. The leathers may have been cut at an early stage, but production takes time. For a full series of hand sewn shoes, it certainly takes a lot longer than I think many here expect. Imagine doing the same amount of shoes only with very specific leathers, colours, soles, and other specifications unique to each and every shoe.

At the same time, Bonafe supplies a large number of other stores and brands around the world, that may have orders in long before the 1XX MTOs came in. I'm currently in Japan, and I see EB in stores all over here.

I'd say being able to be so specific when it comes to models, details, and even slight adjustments to improve fit, to the price offered is very unique and definitely worth the wait and the occasional delay.

I agree with this.

 

One of the reasons why I support artists/craftsmanship.

 

Not saying missing deadlines, falling short of expectations is acceptable but this not abnormal, specially with Italian makers and geenral trade in the summer (Some non German European countries) , I find humor and allure in this. 

 

My opinion

post #15457 of 24880
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoosicPa View Post

Thanks Leaves, just wanted to be sure they were truly a darker brown, as my other pair are a light brown.




These look light brown in indirect natural light but they generally look like a medium brown shoe. I've compared them to my 105s which I believe are color 607. I also asked for the Russian calf to be dark from the factory. Just evidence that it can come out as a medium to darker brown.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dddrees View Post

Delays can happen, and when they do, then we will notice. Boy have I noticed, but boy it has not yet me decide to go back to buying Cole Hahn or Allen Edmonds however, or even just stocked Edward Green shoes. I like the many other possibilities of getting the other shoes I can get when ordering something via MTO. Besides by having a larger rotation now it does help until I get the current one I am waiting one. Am I happy it's taking almost a year, NO!!!!!!!! Will I be happier when I get them, YES!!!!!!!


I'm sorry to hear this is currently happening to you. Do I know what you feel like, No. But I am pretty much in the same boat, as many others have been as well.

It's misleading to states that the only other option to undefined waiting periods is to purchase Cole Hahn or Allen Edmonds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonWave View Post

I do appreciate that senior members have come forward in an attempt to console me. However in the professional world, there are standards and there are deadlines. I regret that in choosing Enzo Bonafe to make up a pair of shoes for me, I had inadvertently chosen a maker who had no appreciation of running a serious business. The fact that other people have suffered the same fate only begs the question as to how this could have been allowed to continue for so long.

I understand that with an MTO, the customer obtains something relatively unique. However, I know for a fact that EB is not the only maker who can execute the design I have in mind. In the professional world, if you are not hungry for business, there is always someone else who is hungrier than you and has more pride in their work. Fortunately I have found a couple of makers who have impressed me a great deal, and I just hope that they do not read this thread and realise how much they could be getting away with in view of the surprisingly high tolerance for sloth that can exist.
Thank you, but I respectfully disagree. EB has taken my deposit and gone on holiday even though my order has been outstanding for half a year. While it is still open to me to go to another maker now whom I know could execute what I have in mind, I would have to forfeit my deposit, and would have had waited for more than half a year, when I could have just gone to another maker from the start, and have had been able to wear my shoes for the last four months.

I also realise now that I was utterly remiss in relying on the estimate of 3 months on Skoaktiebolaget’s website, and I should have done further due diligence to determine EB's capacity for dilatoriness. I consider this a lesson learnt, but I hope it will not be at the expense of my 50% deposit.

I'm with you @CrimsonWave, where is the customer service and accountability on behalf of the manufacturer?

I know the decisions on what to purchase is calculated on a number of factors. In my personal experience I had similar excruciating experiences with Alden and G&G. I also got fed up and and switched makers. In the half dozen pairs I've ordered from StC they've consistently only taken 8 weeks with a variation of one week on one occasion, for delivery. Even the pair I ordered a few days before Christmas (and therefore before some factory holidays) was delivered in two months. I couldn't believe it.

It's almost like they care about honoring their commitment to their customer (and retailer for that matter). No manufacturer is perfect, but I respect StC massively for this aspect of their business—among others.

I only bring this up for those saying that the agony of untold wait times is a symptom of the industry. It is not, it is the due to the circumstances of the individual manufacturers.
post #15458 of 24880
Itsuo what shoe is that on right side. Second picture input would be appricated last color etc
post #15459 of 24880
Lol. You know StC is ~2x the price of EB right?
post #15460 of 24880

Let's just say one of my favorite shoemaker, which is commonly portrayed as KING of shell, has constantly failed to meet deadlines. 

 

It seems that most shoe-manufacturing facilities have some sort of bottleneck that can extend suggested production times, especially when there's an influx of orders.

 

Not to call out any names, but I have experienced delays of over 3+ months plus with a few of the big names on this forum, but that's probably the nature of the business.    

post #15461 of 24880
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonWave View Post

I do appreciate that senior members have come forward in an attempt to console me. However in the professional world, there are standards and there are deadlines.

I also realise now that I was utterly remiss in relying on the estimate of 3 months on Skoaktiebolaget’s website, and I should have done further due diligence to determine EB's capacity for dilatoriness. I consider this a lesson learnt, but I hope it will not be at the expense of my 50% deposit.

Do you also have contracts and purchase agreements in your professional world?
Quote:
Deposits are non-refundable and non-transferable to other orders.
post #15462 of 24880
Also.... In the professional world, You don't compare unrelated business together, and assume they work the same. Shoes =/ your office. I do not believe skoak gave you a deadline as you stated, but rather an estimate. Those are different.

Also, Skoak said Bonafe sent out the remaining orders, so you comments about 'going out on vacation with orders unfulfilled' is incorrect.
post #15463 of 24880
Bonafe is a smaller Italian artisan shop, right? There's a big difference of business culture right there.

Others have mentioned Alden as repeatedly egregious when it comes to delays, with many customers paying in full well over a year in advance to receiving the product. And they don't even do single MTOs.

On top of that, the quality of manufacture does not approach Enzo Bonafe at the SAME price point.

It sucks to have an MTO delayed. I paid full price for an AE chukka MTO in a rare shell cordovan color, and it was similarly delayed and delayed (7 months) so even big factories can have problems with special orders.

Good luck with your case. All I can say is that the quality of Emzo Bonafe is as high as I've seen in the sub 1000 RTW world.
post #15464 of 24880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handcuffed View Post

Do you also have contracts and purchase agreements in your professional world?

I had never asserted any contractual right to a refund. Occasionally, rights are waived out of goodwill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

Also.... In the professional world, You don't compare unrelated business together, and assume they work the same. Shoes =/ your office. I do not believe skoak gave you a deadline as you stated, but rather an estimate. Those are different.

Also, Skoak said Bonafe sent out the remaining orders, so you comments about 'going out on vacation with orders unfulfilled' is incorrect.

I had previously given an example of another shoemaker, and managed to fulfil my order in a much shorter time. I do not recall mentioning my office.

I did not claim Skoak gave me a deadline.

If Skoak has indeed received my order before EB went on holiday, then I will certainly apologise.
post #15465 of 24880
Quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


These look light brown in indirect natural light but they generally look like a medium brown shoe. I've compared them to my 105s which I believe are color 607. I also asked for the Russian calf to be dark from the factory. Just evidence that it can come out as a medium to darker brown.

[\spoiler]
It's misleading to states that the only other option to undefined waiting periods is to purchase Cole Hahn or Allen Edmonds...
I'm with you @CrimsonWave, where is the customer service and accountability on behalf of the manufacturer?

I know the decisions on what to purchase is calculated on a number of factors. In my personal experience I had similar excruciating experiences with Alden and G&G. I also got fed up and and switched makers. In the half dozen pairs I've ordered from StC they've consistently only taken 8 weeks with a variation of one week on one occasion, for delivery. Even the pair I ordered a few days before Christmas (and therefore before some factory holidays) was delivered in two months. I couldn't believe it.

It's almost like they care about honoring their commitment to their customer (and retailer for that matter). No manufacturer is perfect, but I respect StC massively for this aspect of their business—among others.

I only bring this up for those saying that the agony of untold wait times is a symptom of the industry. It is not, it is the due to the circumstances of the individual manufacturers.
l

I'm glad your experience with St Crispins has been on time so far and I hope that remains that way. However I've personally experienced otherwise with one pair of St Crispins shoes and it happened at this time of the year when they went on break as well. Whether they had an influx of orders or something else when it occurred I have no idea. But it happened.

Maybe I should have refrained from using specific brands of shoemakers and that would have been better. What I was trying to emphasize was that there are simply differences between a product you can buy off the shelf and one for which you are ordering via Made To Order. Delays simply can and do occur and when they do you will of course notice. When buying off the shelf you only notice this when a pair in your size isn't available, but at that point it could be for any number of reasons.

This doesn't mean I don't understand some peoples frustrations and missed expectations. It's just that although I don't like it, I still chose to purchase this way because in the long run I'm getting the product that I want, in the style, the color, the leather, and the Last I want it in. It's no different than choosing between one shoemaker vs an other for me. When I chose and compare the decision I make is because I know up front based on my experience and experiences of others this the decision that is best for me. The more I do it the more I become aware of the pitfalls that exist with various shoemakers. All things are taken into consideration to include fit, style, finishing, quality, and customer service.

Unfortunately the OP wasn't aware of certain factors which if he had he may have chosen otherwise. I certainly don't want to make light about it either. But Heck we don't even know at this point if the special MTO program even affected his order. I understand his perspective, and I understand his frustration and I get his reasoning. However my experience to this point tells me that if I wish to continue to purchase shoes in this manner my patience will sometimes be tested. It's occurred to me more than once now and with a few different shoemakers. As long as my expectations with regards to what I am getting continues to be met or exceeded I will probably continue to purchase shoes in this manner however.
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Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Skoaktiebolaget – Carmina, John Lobb, Enzo Bonafè, Carlos Santos, Saint Crispin’s, Gaziano & Girling, Rubinacci – Official Thread