John Lobb Appreciation Thread

DWFII said:

What is it that makes it ridiculous? That you don't want to hear it? That it's not a matter of opinion or speculation but of hard concrete facts? If you talk about shoes in any context but superficialities, somewhere along the line you have to talk about how they are put together. Issues of substance in other words.

If you control this thread, let us all know so that we may tailor our remarks to your wishes.

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chogall said:

Okay. No gemming. But do you know your JL RTW shoes uses heat formed plastic for toe buff and heel counter? All while bespoke makers like JL Paris bespoke uses only leather toe buff and heel counter? Do you?

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gegarrenton said:

Pretty simple. This thread is about Lobb appreciation. There are a jillion other threads discussing the merits of gemming, there is absolutely no reason to turn this thread into yet another quagmire about it and drown out all the Lobb stuff. Period.

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DWFII said:

You mean "pull your head out of the sand."

I repeat...for those who didn't catch it first time around...I didn't raise the issue, I just answered the questions that were posed.

Now if you can get everyone in this thread to talk about shines and lines, and the merits of boxes, there'd be no need to worry. Nothing of substance would crop up and you could go back to cooing over your shoes.

And BTW...with respect to Lobbs...I regard John Lobb, St. James St. as one of, if not the premium maker of men's dress shoes in the world. And John Hunter Lobb--the president of Lobbs on St James--has said "we have turned our backs to the machine."

I believe that includes Goodyear machines.

And, AFAIK, if you're not talking about Lobbs on St. James, you're talking about Hermes.

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gegarrenton said:

Yep, sure do.

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JermynStreet said:

DFW I understand what you are saying and I don't think we are in disagreement. From all of the sources that I have looked at, modern welting-goodyear or handseaming-was not invented until after Mr. Goodyear invented the goodyear welt. In other words, before goodyear, soles were simply sewn to the bottom of the upper. When the sole was gone, so was the shoe. I understand Goodyear welting to not really refer to quality of materials (whether it's sinew or nylon or whatever), but rather to the type of construction-an insole connected to an upper with welting, and which welting is connected to the outer soul. Traditional inseaming is superior to machined goodyear welts, but the now "traditional" inseaming method was not invented until after goodyear had the idea to connect the outer soul to the welt. Thus the traditional inseaming is still a goodyear style welt-just a superior form. I don't think we're disagreeing on the quality, I think we are disagreeing on the terminology. All of St. Crispins, Lobb and G&G have goodyear process welting that is done with the highest quality materials and by hand, but it is still goodyear.

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Ilovelobbs said:

Now for some JL p0rn...Double Buckles means Double Trouble. Chapel vs John Lobb Saint Ccrispin 2010 - Field report Construction: Goodyear welted (machine) = C5 / SC5 Waist: Both have similar sleek curved bevel = C5 / SC5 Lining: I prefer the lining of the Chapel than the SC 2010, it's softer and feels like their Moroccan goat skin they used to have on the MTO = C5 / SC4.5 Last: the Chapel on the 8000 last where as the SC 2010 on the 7000, my personal preference always been the 8000, so a little biased here already. Just like the BMW E62 - it looks amazing in every single viewpoint and angle. = C5 / SC4.5 Cost: Chapel £980 and the SC2010 £1000+ = C5 / SC4.5 Leather and Cut: Both are wholecut buckles made from 1 piece of leather. The leather on the Chapel is softer and has the marble effect called the Museum calf. Both shoes is well trimmed and finished and you can see there a touch more hand labour involved in the inseam stitched of the SC2010 (see 3rd picture). C4.5 / SC5 Overall rating: Chapel = 29.5 / 2010 SC = 28.5

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Ilovelobbs said:

Now for some JL p0rn...Double Buckles means Double Trouble.

Chapel vs John Lobb Saint Ccrispin 2010 - Field report

Construction: Goodyear welted (machine) = C5 / SC5

Waist: Both have similar sleek curved bevel = C5 / SC5

Lining: I prefer the lining of the Chapel than the SC 2010, it's softer and feels like their Moroccan goat skin they used to have on the MTO = C5 / SC4.5

Last: the Chapel on the 8000 last where as the SC 2010 on the 7000, my personal preference always been the 8000, so a little biased here already. Just like the BMW E62 - it looks amazing in every single viewpoint and angle. = C5 / SC4.5

Cost: Chapel £980 and the SC2010 £1000+ = C5 / SC4.5

Leather and Cut: Both are wholecut buckles made from 1 piece of leather. The leather on the Chapel is softer and has the marble effect called the Museum calf. Both shoes is well trimmed and finished and you can see there a touch more hand labour involved in the inseam stitched of the SC2010 (see 3rd picture). C4.5 / SC5

Overall rating: Chapel = 29.5 / 2010 SC = 28.5




Very interesting. What do you think about the heel stack and the edge trim? I much prefer Chapel's edge trim as the naked/burnished edges of SC2010 is too raw to my eyes. But the biggest letdown of both monks is the heel stack; its the standardized JL heel stack thats a bit too sturdy looking for such refined shoes/lasts.

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chogall said:

Very interesting. What do you think about the heel stack and the edge trim? I much prefer Chapel's edge trim as the naked/burnished edges of SC2010 is too raw to my eyes. But the biggest letdown of both monks is the heel stack; its the standardized JL heel stack thats a bit too sturdy looking for such refined shoes/lasts.

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DWFII said:

And John Hunter Lobb--the president of Lobbs on St James--has said "we have turned our backs to the machine."

I believe that includes Goodyear machines.

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DWFII said:

I don't know what your sources are but it's simply not true. Look this over good:



(click to enlarge if you cannot read the text)

1500 AD is the rough date for inseaming. At that time welt was sewn to the upper, and the insole simultaneously. It is still done that way today.

Charles Goodyear Jr. doesn't come along until 369 years later. And, IIRC, Goodyear welting, as we know it today, doesn't really get rolling until after WWI. There is nothing traditional about Goodyear welting techniques; Goodyear has its origins with hand welted inseams, not vice-versa. That's fact.

In terms of technique and quality, Goodyear does not sew the welt and the upper to the insole but rather to a strip of linen that is glued to the insole.

If shoes were compared to woodworking, the difference would very literally be the difference between a dovetailed join and a simple white glue join (perhaps with brads).
Completely bogus...and, no disrespect intended...ignorant as well. More than that, it's really an outrageous statement to make. Goodyear is pretending to be hand welted. As a technique, it...and those who adopt and sell their product without drawing a clear distinction....are trying to deliberately deceive the uneducated customer into believing that Goodyear is as good as a hand sewn inseam.
Sorry bogus again. One of the makers you mentioned does, AFAIK, hand welt their inseams, but it is not now and never was referred to as "Goodyear."

The other two may offer premium MTM lines where some, occasional, hand inseaming is done. But the rest of their shoes are goodyear welted, by machine to glued gemming.They are not now and never were done by hand.

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bengal-stripe said:

Now, would the London company want to turn their backs to the loot coming from the machines?

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JermynStreet said:

DFW-I stand corrected. Your explanation was very helpful and I understand now. I also want to give a hat tip to Justin from http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/ for helping clear up this issue for me, as well. PM me and I can send you the Saphir, or will gladly make a donation to a charity in your name for $21.95. 

-JermynStreet

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