John Lobb Appreciation Thread



JermynStreet said:

hand welting and goodyear welting are not mutually exclusive. The only difference is that one is sewn by hand and one is sewn by machine. If you look at any shoe, it is the same construction. It is a sole foundation, a foundation tacked on, followed by leather welting sewing on. The hot cork is then poured into the void. After this, the cork will be sewn down and a sole is put on. This sole is attached to the welting by stitches, which can be done by machine or hand. occasionally, higher end shoes will decoratively dig up the sides of the sole so that the welt sewing appears hidden. This does not change the fact that this is a goodyear welting method. If someone proves me wrong, I'll gladly buy them a bottle of safir polish or tin of wax.

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I don't need more polishes but can I get something else instead? Like say some abbey horn shoes horn?

sdolina said:

LOL
Why not to read the link DWFII posted before writing this?

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I did read it and I do not agree. The Goodyear method refers to the process of construction, not the machine. Until I see a definitive authority otherwise (I do not see it in my Laszlo Vass book), I feel that my argument stands. Goodyear figured out that you can save a shoe and extend its life by using a detachable soul. It also happened that he made a machine. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that this method was around before Goodyear invented the method in the 1850s.

Can we please keep the ridiculous gemming discussions out of here.

Here we go again...

JermynStreet said:

I did read it and I do not agree. The Goodyear method refers to the process of construction, not the machine. Until I see a definitive authority otherwise (I do not see it in my Laszlo Vass book), I feel that my argument stands. Goodyear figured out that you can save a shoe and extend its life by using a detachable soul. It also happened that he made a machine. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that this method was around before Goodyear invented the method in the 1850s.

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http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2011/07/shoes-part-1-construction.html.

"It is generally regarded as the best construction in terms of comfort and durability as well as ease in terms of reparation. It also holds the same theory as bespoke welting, yet the obvious difference being that in bespoke it is done by hand and does not have a canvas rib supporting the feather."

If the canvas rib is the distinguishing factor, then I'll stand corrected, otherwise, I stand by my argument.



gegarrenton said:

Can we please keep the ridiculous gemming discussions out of here.

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JubeiSpiegel said:

Here we go again...

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lol, that **** invade every shoe thread ever made, now it's this fine thread turn.



gegarrenton said:

Can we please keep the ridiculous gemming discussions out of here.

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What is it that makes it ridiculous? That you don't want to hear it? That it's not a matter of opinion or speculation but of hard concrete facts? If you talk about shoes in any context but superficialities, somewhere along the line you have to talk about how they are put together. Issues of substance in other words.

If you control this thread, let us all know so that we may tailor our remarks to your wishes.

It's not that it's ridiculous imo, it's very interesting and i learned a lot from it (and from most of DWFII posts), it's just that the subject have been beaten to death, I already understand it and I think most people here do too.



JermynStreet said:

If the canvas rib is the distinguishing factor, then I'll stand corrected, otherwise, I stand by my argument.</span>

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It is not just the canvas rib, it is all that is implied and embraced by replacing a strong connection with one that relies on glue and canvas and the attendant and inevitable inferior substrates/foundations. No connection can be stronger than its weakest component/link.

In the case of Traditional inseaming, done by hand, the foundation is a relatively thick and high quality leather insole, combined with stout thread (several millimeters in diameter) that has been waxed with a mixture of pine pitch, rosin and beeswax--effectively sealing the holes in the leather and locking the thread in place (BTW, pine pitch has antibacterial properties). The weakest component may be the welt itself if only because it is exposed to the elements.

In the case of Goodyear the weakest links are both the quality of the insole...which may not be leather at all--there's no necessity that it be...and the glue that holds the gemming (a weak link in and of itself) to the insole. The inseaming thread is not waxed in the same fashion nor for the same purposes as hand thread. The whole connection/amalgamation has none of the integrity nor the stability of a hand sewn inseam.

If you have read the interview you need to think seriously about the downward pressure on quality that Goodyear welting forces...and has forced, without any exception that I am aware of...on the selection of materials and techniques used in the making of a shoe.

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rikod said:

It's not that it's ridiculous imo, it's very interesting and i learned a lot from it (and from most of DWFII posts), it's just that the subject have been beaten to death, I already understand it and I think most people here do too.

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There is that...and I try not to initiate discussions about gemming, esp. not in threads dedicated to the adulation/admiration of a particular brand.

That said, I was called into this discussion.

And probably more to the point there are always newcomers who don't know and haven't given it much thought. At least two members expressed a certain ignorance (lack of knowledge) about the issues in this thread. You cannot combat ignorance by silence or denial.
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JermynStreet said:

I did read it and I do not agree. The Goodyear method refers to the process of construction, not the machine. Until I see a definitive authority otherwise (I do not see it in my Laszlo Vass book), I feel that my argument stands. Goodyear figured out that you can save a shoe and extend its life by using a detachable soul. It also happened that he made a machine. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that this method was around before Goodyear invented the method in the 1850s.

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Actually the welted method of shoe construction dates to roughly 1500 (Dictionary of Leather-Working Tools c. 1700-1950, R.A. Salaman, George Allen & Unwin,1986--one of the definitive books on terminology and the history of shoemaking) and is relatively unchanged to this day. It allowed (and always allowed) the outsole to be replaced almost indefinitely (without re-manufacturing).

To the extent that Goodyear thought that he had a new idea in that regard (as Wikipedia implies/claims), he was deluded.

I'd like one of those Abby horn shoehorns, too.

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DWFII said:

How do you combat ignorance if not by educating?

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honestly the forum is lucky to have individuals qualified and willing to do so....

DWFII said:

It is not just the canvas rib, it is all that is implied and embraced by replacing a strong connection with one that relies on glue and canvas and the attendant and inevitable inferior substrates/foundations. No connection can be stronger than its weakest component/link.

In the case of Traditional inseaming, done by hand, the foundation is a relatively thick and high quality leather insole, combined with stout thread (several millimeters in diameter) that has been waxed with a mixture of pine pitch, rosin and beeswax--effectively sealing the holes in the leather and locking the thread in place (BTW, pine pitch has antibacterial properties). The weakest component may be the welt itself if only because it is exposed to the elements.

In the case of Goodyear the weakest links are both the quality of the insole...which may not be leather at all--there's no necessity that it be...and the glue that holds the gemming (a weak link in and of itself) to the insole. The inseaming thread is not waxed in the same fashion nor for the same purposes as hand thread. The whole connection/amalgamation has none of the integrity nor the stability of a hand sewn inseam.

If you have read the interview you need to think seriously about the downward pressure on quality that Goodyear welting forces...and has forced, without any exception that I am aware of...on the selection of materials and techniques used in the making of a shoe.

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DFW I understand what you are saying and I don't think we are in disagreement. From all of the sources that I have looked at, modern welting-goodyear or handseaming-was not invented until after Mr. Goodyear invented the goodyear welt. In other words, before goodyear, soles were simply sewn to the bottom of the upper. When the sole was gone, so was the shoe. I understand Goodyear welting to not really refer to quality of materials (whether it's sinew or nylon or whatever), but rather to the type of construction-an insole connected to an upper with welting, and which welting is connected to the outer soul. Traditional inseaming is superior to machined goodyear welts, but the now "traditional" inseaming method was not invented until after goodyear had the idea to connect the outer soul to the welt. Thus the traditional inseaming is still a goodyear style welt-just a superior form. I don't think we're disagreeing on the quality, I think we are disagreeing on the terminology. All of St. Crispins, Lobb and G&G have goodyear process welting that is done with the highest quality materials and by hand, but it is still goodyear.



gegarrenton said:

Can we please keep the ridiculous gemming discussions out of here.

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Okay. No gemming. But do you know your JL RTW shoes uses heat formed plastic for toe buff and heel counter? All while bespoke makers like JL Paris bespoke uses only leather toe buff and heel counter? Do you?



JermynStreet said:

DFW I understand what you are saying and I don't think we are in disagreement. From all of the sources that I have looked at, modern welting-goodyear or handseaming-was not invented until after Mr. Goodyear invented the goodyear welt. In other words, before goodyear, soles were simply sewn to the bottom of the upper. When the sole was gone, so was the shoe.

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I don't know what your sources are but it's simply not true. Look this over good:



(click to enlarge if you cannot read the text)

1500 AD is the rough date for inseaming. At that time welt was sewn to the upper, and the insole simultaneously. It is still done that way today.

Charles Goodyear Jr. doesn't come along until 369 years later. And, IIRC, Goodyear welting, as we know it today, doesn't really get rolling until after WWI. There is nothing traditional about Goodyear welting techniques; Goodyear has its origins with hand welted inseams, not vice-versa. That's fact.

In terms of technique and quality, Goodyear does not sew the welt and the upper to the insole but rather to a strip of linen that is glued to the insole.

If shoes were compared to woodworking, the difference would very literally be the difference between a dovetailed join and a simple white glue join (perhaps with brads).

Traditional inseaming is superior to machined goodyear welts, but the now "traditional" inseaming method was not invented until after goodyear had the idea to connect the outer soul to the welt. Thus the traditional inseaming is still a goodyear style welt-just a superior form. I don't think we're disagreeing on the quality, I think we are disagreeing on the terminology.

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Completely bogus...and, no disrespect intended...ignorant as well. More than that, it's really an outrageous statement to make. Goodyear is pretending to be hand welted. As a technique, it...and those who adopt and sell their product without drawing a clear distinction....are trying to deliberately deceive the uneducated customer into believing that Goodyear is as good as a hand sewn inseam.

All of St. Crispins, Lobb and G&G have goodyear process welting that is done with the highest quality materials and by hand, but it is still goodyear.

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Sorry bogus again. One of the makers you mentioned does, AFAIK, hand welt their inseams, but it is not now and never was referred to as "Goodyear."

The other two may offer premium MTM lines where some, occasional, hand inseaming is done. But the rest of their shoes are goodyear welted, by machine to glued gemming.They are not now and never were done by hand.

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