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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 58

post #856 of 6081
So what's the Constitutionality of just standing there and getting frisked?
post #857 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

So what's the Constitutionality of just standing there and getting frisked?

Why don't you ask my billy club!
post #858 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post

Why don't you ask my billy club!

If you're not guilty of anything you've nothing to fear from getting frisked...
post #859 of 6081
I don't see how you can say anything about why the guy was arrested from the article or the video.

Piob, I don't understand your question... do you mean can the cops frisk someone for no reason? No, but they can stop people to talk to them when they're reasonably suspected of having committed a crime, and they can pat them down for weapons as a safety precaution when they have an articulable suspicion that the person might be dangerous. All these things depend on the perspective of the police and not the person who's suspected, so you doesn't necessarily know whether or not the cops can legally stop and frisk you or not. That's one good reason you should cooperate.
post #860 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I don't see how you can say anything about why the guy was arrested from the article or the video.

Piob, I don't understand your question... do you mean can the cops frisk someone for no reason? No, but they can stop people to talk to them when they're reasonably suspected of having committed a crime, and they can pat them down for weapons as a safety precaution when they have an articulable suspicion that the person might be dangerous. All these things depend on the perspective of the police and not the person who's suspected, so you doesn't necessarily know whether or not the cops can legally stop and frisk you or not. That's one good reason you should cooperate.

And that's a problem. Basically, none of us are safe in our person from forced searches any time we're in public...hell, any time we're in our home too apparently.

Also, the video shows instant cooperation with the frisk. From there it went almost straight to getting cuffed.
post #861 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

And that's a problem. Basically, none of us are safe in our person from forced searches any time we're in public...hell, any time we're in our home too apparently.

Also, the video shows instant cooperation with the frisk. From there it went almost straight to getting cuffed.

It went from the cop letting him sit back down (after frisking him, so one is to assume they were not going to arrest him) to the other cop coming over and cuffing him, in a rather weird way actually. Typically they would make him either get back up and put his hands behind his back or they would order him to stick his hands out. The way the black female cop went at him to cuff him, it was almost surely going to lead to an "incident". OF course, we can't hear the audio so who knows what he said to the cops.

And I'm sure the other cops that came over hitting him while he was on the ground cuffed had a good reason to do it.
post #862 of 6081
It's certainly edited to look that way. Is there an unaltered video somewhere?
post #863 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

It's certainly edited to look that way. Is there an unaltered video somewhere?

Even if it's edited he submitted to the frisk so they know he's not armed. He's sitting down doing nothing threatening and the cop rushes over and cuffs him in a very non-typical manner. I think he said something she didn't like and her inner bully asshole came rushing out.
post #864 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

And that's a problem. Basically, none of us are safe in our person from forced searches any time we're in public...hell, any time we're in our home too apparently.

No, the cops are only allowed to search you if they have reasonable suspicion you've committed a crime and that you're dangerous. They're allowed to arrest you or even shoot you in the street based on the same perspective, that is, what the cop knows and sees. Cop can run you over in the street and, if from his perspective, he couldn't have seen you, he's not guilty of a crime or liable for a tort. That's just how it works. It's how most things in the law work.

If the cops find anything incriminating the search will be challenged as a matter of course. If they don't find anything and you think you've wrongly been searched, you can go all the way up to literally making a federal case out of it if you want. As a practical matter most people don't do that but the option is always there.
post #865 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Even if it's edited he submitted to the frisk so they know he's not armed. He's sitting down doing nothing threatening and the cop rushes over and cuffs him in a very non-typical manner. I think he said something she didn't like and her inner bully asshole came rushing out.

Like, "yeah, I just killed him. The body's in the alley over there"?

You shouldn't jump to conclusions based on an edited video with no audio and a story told from just one side.
post #866 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

No, the cops are only allowed to search you if they have reasonable suspicion you've committed a crime and that you're dangerous. They're allowed to arrest you or even shoot you in the street based on the same perspective, that is, what the cop knows and sees. Cop can run you over in the street and, if from his perspective, he couldn't have seen you, he's not guilty of a crime or liable for a tort. That's just how it works. It's how most things in the law work.

If the cops find anything incriminating the search will be challenged as a matter of course. If they don't find anything and you think you've wrongly been searched, you can go all the way up to literally making a federal case out of it if you want. As a practical matter most people don't do that but the option is always there.

Per your earlier comment this is basically a de facto precondition of a person in their presence. I'm not arguing that this is the case, as it clearly is, I'm saying this is not a good reality to live in.
post #867 of 6081
It's a rule invented by the famously liberal Warren court, and one that makes a lot of sense.

People are rarely in a position to know for sure that the cops don't have the right to stop, frisk, or arrest them. That's just the way it is, and it's been that way for a very long time. Do you have a better idea?

You can clearly see the guy resisting arrest in the video. This suggestion that cops should have to explain what their evidence is and why they're arresting you before they do it would be incredibly impractical.

"I didn't stop my car because the cop wouldn't tell me why he was pulling me over!"
post #868 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

It's a rule invented by the famously liberal Warren court, and one that makes a lot of sense.

People are rarely in a position to know for sure that the cops don't have the right to stop, frisk, or arrest them. That's just the way it is, and it's been that way for a very long time. Do you have a better idea?

You can clearly see the guy resisting arrest in the video. This suggestion that cops should have to explain what their evidence is and why they're arresting you before they do it would be incredibly impractical.

"I didn't stop my car because the cop wouldn't tell me why he was pulling me over!"

Yes, I do have a better idea. I think people minding their own business should be safe in their persons from unreasonable search and seizure. I'm pretty sure this is not an original idea. People should be very sure, that if they are not acting in a threatening manner, not disturbing the peace, not in the middle of committing a crime, some stranger with a badge cannot walk up and fondle their nuts.

Now, you've shifted things a bit by drawing driving a vehicle into this. Even then, while one must pull over and provide certain documentation, there are limits to their legal actions prior to being detained. However we both know that trying to exercise the legal limits on the actions of police pulling you over is just asking them to escalate their likelihood to bully you and/or do something illegal to make you look guilty to cover their illegal actions. I'm a pretty "law and order" type of guy, but the thing is, both law and order must be on both sides of the badge and clearly is not on a pretty regular basis.
post #869 of 6081
Can you say with absolute certainty that aliens didn't abduct your mother when she was pregnant, clone you, deposit the clone in a broken household and that he's not robbing some business a couple blocks away, at this very moment?

If the answer's no (and it is) then you can't know for sure that the cops don't have probable cause to arrest you.
post #870 of 6081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Can you say with absolute certainty that aliens didn't abduct your mother when she was pregnant, clone you, deposit the clone in a broken household and that he's not robbing some business a couple blocks away, at this very moment?

If the answer's no (and it is) then you can't know for sure that the cops don't have probable cause to arrest you.

Which is why all these restrictions are placed on the actions of law enforcement. The problem is we have seen all too often the results of a civilian wanting these restrictions honoured.
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