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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 359

post #5371 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by double00 View Post


they're not haphazard, and it doesn't take a phd (actually most phd's are too busy counting trees to see the forest ime)

the reason why those three deaths would be particularly incendiary is plain for anybody with the sense to see. furthermore, i strongly suspect that it's for precisely the same reason that you think the Rice example is particularly outrageous. 

Going to be honest...no clue what you're trying to say here and disagree completely that the Martin death in any way has anything to do with how police deal with black people. This seems more like just your general disagreement with anything I say.

Your only point I agree with is the inference I have no sense.
post #5372 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

Your problem is assuming that there is any sort of reasonable agenda here at all. There is so much boredom, anger, and tension in those communities and pissed off people will seize on an opportunity to wyle out.

This could all be true.
post #5373 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal View Post

LOL. Unauthorized use of a telephone. The humanity.

It's a misdemeanor, and it's for using a phone to threaten or harass someone. Right there in the link.
post #5374 of 6095
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post #5375 of 6095
I don't point out black crime as an ad hominem. I do it because it is the explanation for 99% of the supposed racism in policing. Black crime ought to be the bookend of any honest discussion about policing and race in America: black neighborhoods are policed more because of the violence that happens there, grossly out of proportion to the rest of the country. But it's not. Suited and Hannity notwithstanding, black crime is barely ever mentioned by the media or the activists in connection with policing statistics, leading to and validating the erroneous perception that the police focus on black neighborhoods because they don't like black people, that black people are subject to special persecution or suffer special abuses, etc.

You might argue that police could have different priorities, could be less confrontational or aggressive, and the like. And there are a few cases of clear abuse. But black people experience it more or less in proportion to the crimes they commit, and that is ignored.

The media and the activists' dishonesty perpetuates the problems it's supposed to address. The past couple years have proven that excusing black criminality and encouraging alienation and distrust of the police just leads leads to more crime and more violence, and 90% of it is against black victims. Nothing good comes out of this irresponsible and dishonest activism, at least nothing good for the public.

The news networks do seem to profit from controversy, so they take advantage of (and perpetuate) black paranoia by drumming up the marginal and ridiculous cases instead of the unnamed "most obvious and egregious examples of racism and brutality."
post #5376 of 6095
Quote:
But black people experience it more or less in proportion to the crimes they commit, and that is ignored.

"The black community" doesn't commit crimes. Individual people commit crimes.


That's not a trivial distinction. If you're a law abiding black person, you're still affected by these policies to combat "black crime." The fact that it's in proportion to crimes committed by other black people isn't going to be a whole lot of solace when you're getting pulled over and treated like a criminal because you're black. People are just supposed to be quiet and accept that until "the community" gets its shit together?



The liberal movement does have a problem with removing individual responsibility, but telling people to shut up and not even have a conversation in the public sphere before the internal problems in their community are fixed is even worse.
post #5377 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wojt View Post

also it affects blacks more because they commit shit tons more of violent crime, which is btw much bigger issue in terms of body count than few victims/year of police brutality. - not becasue there is some racist plot to hold blacks down

 
You do know that blacks are often stopped multiple times even when doing nothing wrong right? Ever heard of 'driving while black' or 'stop and frisk' (in NY)? 


So this is why are they are commiting so many violent crimes(, because they are 'stopped and frisked', or is it maybe because they are do so much crime they get special attention from the police, unlike chinese americans for example? Blacks commit half of USAs murders being like 13% of population, it's a fact. If a police stops a person they can pretty much expect to be shot by young black man not old white lady, so i can see why they are a bit more on edge in those situations.

Sure, some of it is racism and I concede the point that often black people are treated unjustly, but most is experience unfortunately. But seriously I amazed most of the people shot by police are white and not black since looking at crime stats black districts are for sure policed a lot more.

this doesnt mean police approach to citizen shouldn't change- it should, but there is this one sided debate how racist police is there to get blacks and i don't really believe it is so. And there is a reason why black people get into conflicts with police more often than white per capita and that is not police fault.
post #5378 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


Going to be honest...no clue what you're trying to say here and disagree completely that the Martin death in any way has anything to do with how police deal with black people. This seems more like just your general disagreement with anything I say.

Your only point I agree with is the inference I have no sense.


ftr, i agree with plenty that you write. in fact i wasn't disagreeing with anything in my post save for what we select as particularly egregious is haphazard (i don't think it is).

 

i was making a somewhat oblique point about the locus of outrage. here's another hint: imo it doesn't have to do with the scale of circumstances that you seem to think it does. i'm not particularly interested in debating it, just food for thought. 

post #5379 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

"The black community" doesn't commit crimes. Individual people commit crimes.


That's not a trivial distinction. If you're a law abiding black person, you're still affected by these policies to combat "black crime." The fact that it's in proportion to crimes committed by other black people isn't going to be a whole lot of solace when you're getting pulled over and treated like a criminal because you're black. People are just supposed to be quiet and accept that until "the community" gets its shit together?



The liberal movement does have a problem with removing individual responsibility, but telling people to shut up and not even have a conversation in the public sphere before the internal problems in their community are fixed is even worse.

I can't remember if it was something you posted or not but something I read recently said Repubs want to ascribe things to "culture" and liberals want to deny individual agency.
post #5380 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

It's a misdemeanor, and it's for using a phone to threaten or harass someone. Right there in the link.

Lighten up, Francis.
post #5381 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

"The black community" doesn't commit crimes. Individual people commit crimes.

That's not a trivial distinction. If you're a law abiding black person, you're still affected by these policies to combat "black crime." The fact that it's in proportion to crimes committed by other black people isn't going to be a whole lot of solace when you're getting pulled over and treated like a criminal because you're black.

That's a fair point, like in the example of Castile, who recently got shot at a traffic stop apparently because he resembled someone who'd recently robbed a convenience store. If you want to talk about balancing rational policing with individual fairness, great. But that's not what BLM wants to do -- they'd shout you down as a racist for even suggesting it.
Quote:
People are just supposed to be quiet and accept that until "the community" gets its shit together?

The liberal movement does have a problem with removing individual responsibility, but telling people to shut up and not even have a conversation in the public sphere before the internal problems in their community are fixed is even worse.

I am not telling people to shut up -- I'm saying that they ought to be responsible and honest in their arguments, because that's how problems actually get solved.
post #5382 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I can't remember if it was something you posted or not but something I read recently said Repubs want to ascribe things to "culture" and liberals want to deny individual agency.

Yeah. That guy wrote a book, "Hillbilly Elegy." He's been all over the usual intelligensia circuit recently. I think it's a pretty solid and refreshing take on the situation. Certainly better than the usual partisan stuff.
post #5383 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

That guy wrote a book, "Hillbilly Elegy."

do you mean 'Hibbeldy Gibbeldy' ?
post #5384 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


I am not telling people to shut up -- I'm saying that they ought to be responsible and honest in their arguments, because that's how problems actually get solved.

I suspect people in the black community have been trying to have a calm and rational conversation about these issues for a long time, with very little traction. It took something more...energetic to get the issue into the national conversation. When the calm voices are ignored (indefinitely) and the radical voices dismissed for being too radical, I'm not sure there's any conclusion other than just not wanting to do anything about those issues.

I don't think the community trusts that they'll be listened to if they moderate their voice. Telling BLM to moderate their voice carries the subtext "so we can continue to ignore you." There are plenty of moderate voices out there, they're just all ignored.

BLM is the inevitable response to complaints ignored too long (and a more radical version would come next, if BLM gets scuttled). You build up tensions long enough, and you get the more radical expressions coming out. Exaggeration and lying are political tools used by your more extreme actors (see: Trump, Donald).
post #5385 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

I suspect people in the black community have been trying to have a calm and rational conversation about these issues for a long time, with very little traction. It took something more...energetic to get the issue into the national conversation. When the calm voices are ignored (indefinitely) and the radical voices dismissed for being too radical, I'm not sure there's any conclusion other than just not wanting to do anything about those issues.

I don't think the community trusts that they'll be listened to if they moderate their voice. Telling BLM to moderate their voice carries the subtext "so we can continue to ignore you." There are plenty of moderate voices out there, they're just all ignored.

BLM is the inevitable response to complaints ignored too long (and a more radical version would come next, if BLM gets scuttled). You build up tensions long enough, and you get the more radical expressions coming out. Exaggeration and lying are political tools used by your more extreme actors (see: Trump, Donald).


that's a great apology, you should work for The Young Turks
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