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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 357

post #5341 of 6095
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Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


And? You don't break down drug offenses into possession versus distribution, but I'm sure it's skewed toward the latter. Do you consider dealing drugs a victimless crime?

I don't know what they consider public order offenses so it's hard to say, but googling suggests that public order offenses aren't all "victimless" crimes. http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/947.pdf

 

I do believe dealing drugs is theoretically a victimless crime.  Obviously, drug dealing also requires acts of violence because it is a black market.  I know several people who spent 5+ years in Wisconsin jails for drug dealing which was simply driving people to meet other people to buy drugs - they weren't involved in the actual transaction - just facilitated it and received some cash or drugs as compensation.

post #5342 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post
 
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Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post
 

 That's 4300 people in Wisconsin.

Isn't that everyone in wisconsin?

Hey now!

post #5343 of 6095

Milwaukee had the Dontre Hamilton shooting a few years ago as BLM was forming.  That case still seems to spark anger in the community.

 

However that case did change a lot of policies in WI as now an outside agency has to investigate all police shootings (the department involved cannot investigate) and the use of body cameras was put in place about 18 months after.

post #5344 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

What you say sounds reasonable but goes against what's actually happened. First, let's go back to the formation and its impetus. Three deaths, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and Eric Garner are listed as the crux of the BLM forming. Martin had nothing to do with the police, systemic racism, etc. Brown, even I'm going to say that shooting sounded legit and he was not the "gentle giant" being portrayed as evidenced by that video of him roughing up the tiny store clerk just prior. Now, Garner I'll give the nod to that incident, in that while he was non-compliant, the video clearly shows a small crowd of overly zealous cops.

As I said, flash point incidents seem to be haphazard. Tamir Rice? Now, if one is wanting to riot, I'd say that would be a really good reason. That one just springs to mind.

I get what you're saying about the community being pissed and the smallest spark setting them off. I agree this is what happened and am saying it's not helpful in the least to make one's stand over this incident (based on currently known reports of the incident.)

They are haphazard, but it makes sense. Looking back, with more complete knowledge, certain scenarios don't appear to make sense. But these situations develop fast, they spread virally with incomplete (or even false) information, and more importantly, they happen in the context of the communities that they occurred in.

Small things, like leaving Brown's body in the street for hours after the shooting, carry disproportionate weight in the heat of the moment in a community already primed with resentment. By the time it came out that he was actually a criminal, the situation had legs of its own. It wouldn't have happened in a community that wasn't ready to believe that the police gun down innocent black teens for no reason, and were pissed off enough to do something about it.


A lot of this stuff just goes back to the fact that it's awfully hard to control how things go viral.

Quote:
FWIW, I'm not blaming anything on BLM, in fact, I didn't even mention them in what you responded to. I agree it's not like they're in charge of communities.

Wasn't attributing that sentiment to you, just a general statement. Plenty of other people do seem to make that assertion.
post #5345 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

It wouldn't have happened in a community that wasn't ready to believe that the police gun down innocent black teens for no reason, and were pissed off enough to do something about it.

But you're begging the question about why they think that. Is it because of individual, personal experience with police murdering black people in the street for no reason; or is it because activists (and the media and the democratic party, among others) constantly tell them that it's happening?
post #5346 of 6095
I don't think folks need to continue to double down on stupid though. For instance this: http://blacklivesmatter.com/about/
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#BlackLivesMatter was created in 2012 after Trayvon Martin’s murderer, George Zimmerman, was acquitted for his crime, and dead 17-year old Trayvon was posthumously placed on trial for his own murder.

"Heat of the moment" only justifies the moment.
post #5347 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

And it's just a coincidence that riots and police assassinations started happening after BLM came about.

Nobody is sitting on their couch and deciding to riot because of BLM messaging alone. They're already angry and disillusioned because of perceptions of racial bias over the lifetime. BLM messaging might be the spark in some cases, but the root tension was already there.
post #5348 of 6095
So you admit that BLM's propaganda contributes to rioting and assassinations of police, and that without it, those things often wouldn't happen?

But it's okay for them to exaggerate (and often just outright lie) because there are preexisting underlying perceptions of persecution. Okay...
post #5349 of 6095
When did a black lives matter person assassinate the police? I know you aren't talking about the Texas shooter.
post #5350 of 6095
No, I said BLM lies and people believe their lies and it makes them angry and they do bad things because of it.
post #5351 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

But you're begging the question about why they think that. Is it because of individual, personal experience with police murdering black people in the street for no reason; or is it because activists (and the media and the democratic party, among others) constantly tell them that it's happening?

The flash point incidents focus on killings, but this really isn't about killings alone. It's about a perception of institutional bias and violence from the police towards the black community. Black people don't trust cops, and associate them with violence. That's reality from their perspective.

Also, this willingness to discount the perceptions of the black community is a large part of their point. You have a near universal perception by blacks that police are biased against the black community, and it's simply written off as feeble minded people who are too influenced by activists and the media. You see how that might be a problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

So you admit that BLM's propaganda contributes to rioting and assassinations of police, and that without it, those things often wouldn't happen?

But it's okay for them to exaggerate (and often just outright lie) because there are preexisting underlying perceptions of persecution. Okay...

Many people told Civil Rights activists in the 60s to shut up and go away because they were "inspiring violence." The violence reflects existing problems, and that root problem will never get fixed without calling attention to it. Progress doesn't get made by waiting for perfection, and doesn't get made without cost.

BLM is far from perfect. But they're not the cause of the general problem of racial tension, and neither is the media. We (the white community) shouldn't just discount these complaints because some bad things have happened through the process. If nothing else, quieting this particular messenger is just going to drive the resentment back underground and it might well explode in a worse fashion the next time. Society can only handle so much resentment and pressure, it's our own self-interest to deal with these problems before they blow up. Telling blacks to shut up, fix their own communities first, and then come back isn't going to help with that.
post #5352 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I don't think folks need to continue to double down on stupid though. For instance this: http://blacklivesmatter.com/about/
"Heat of the moment" only justifies the moment.

Sure. We were talking about which incidents trigger immediate responses though.

How and why things percolate into the cultural mythology, that's a different question. Blacks are hardly unique in picking odd and flawed heroes. I'm sure some sociology PhD student has written about that process.
post #5353 of 6095

see: randy weaver and david koresh

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post


Sure. We were talking about which incidents trigger immediate responses though.

How and why things percolate into the cultural mythology, that's a different question. Blacks are hardly unique in picking odd and flawed heroes. I'm sure some sociology PhD student has written about that process.
post #5354 of 6095
Problem is widespread support they get from celebrities, politicans, cucked white students etc they allowed to normalize this misguided movement and it's violent, racist behaviour.
post #5355 of 6095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Sure. We were talking about which incidents trigger immediate responses though.

How and why things percolate into the cultural mythology, that's a different question. Blacks are hardly unique in picking odd and flawed heroes. I'm sure some sociology PhD student has written about that process.

No doubt about that.
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