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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 279

post #4171 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by accordion View Post
 

According to this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/

 

Half of those killed by the police this year were white, a quarter were black.

 

Exactly. Whites makes up 63 percent of the population, where blacks make up 12.5 percent of the population.  Blacks are being killed by police at a hugely disproportionate rate.

post #4172 of 6082

i would guess the % of suspects or person of interest are not the same as the general racial demographic.

post #4173 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post


Have to agree with this. Justifying the use of deadly force should be based solely on the circumstances.
We only hear about the latter, so I doubt many people are capable of accurately determining this, at least not without more evidence. Remember that black Americans are 13% of the population and according to the DOJ committed roughly 50% of all murders in the U.S. between 1980 and 2008 (I think it was closer to 40% in 2013). That is a staggering statistic, and is factual evidence that on average black suspects are more dangerous than white suspects. If you were a cop, I'd have to assume you would behave differently based on who you were approaching. That does not justify the abuse of force, but something to consider when you mention how things escalate.

 

While your reasoning may be logically consistent, it's also destructive. If we as a society allow police officers to be more violent toward blacks based on statistics, we encourage reasonable distrust of law enforcement among blacks. If 12.5 percent of the population is unable to trust that law enforcement will treat them fairly, law enforcement ends up unable to do its job effectively. In a free society, law enforcement works to protect people, and people trust law enforcement to do so. 

post #4174 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by accordion View Post
 

i would guess the % of suspects or person of interest are not the same as the general racial demographic.


Very likely, but there are two ways to interpret that. One way would be to say that black people are more likely than white people to engage in behavior that leads to a police encounter. Another way would be to say that black people are more likely than white people to be stopped for the same behavior. The drug war mentality of stuffing as many cops as possible into the poorest neighborhoods is one of the reasons the second of these two interpretations is probably more accurate.

 

White people tend to be really uncomfortable admitting the extent to which the latter is true, but every adult in this country has done SOMETHING that could have got them stopped by police (speeding, running a stop sign, busted tail light, "looking suspicious", etc. etc. etc.). Police in Greenwich, CT don't stop people for every time they have legal cause. Police in poor, black neighborhoods do. The rate at which police use these pre-textual reasons to stop black people is just too high. The rate at which pre-textual stops escalate into violence is maddening. 

post #4175 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

While your reasoning may be logically consistent, it's also destructive. If we as a society allow police officers to be more violent toward blacks based on statistics, we encourage reasonable distrust of law enforcement among blacks. If 12.5 percent of the population is unable to trust that law enforcement will treat them fairly, law enforcement ends up unable to do its job effectively. In a free society, law enforcement works to protect people, and people trust law enforcement to do so. 

Profiling is innate. All animals do it. Black Americans, especially those dressed and behaving in a certain manner, will continue to be considered more dangerous as long as 13% of the population is committing half of all murders. Media shaming can't change human nature.
post #4176 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post
 


Very likely, but there are two ways to interpret that. One way would be to say that black people are more likely than white people to engage in behavior that leads to a police encounter. Another way would be to say that black people are more likely than white people to be stopped for the same behavior. The drug war mentality of stuffing as many cops as possible into the poorest neighborhoods is one of the reasons the second of these two interpretations is probably more accurate.

 

White people tend to be really uncomfortable admitting the extent to which the latter is true, but every adult in this country has done SOMETHING that could have got them stopped by police (speeding, running a stop sign, busted tail light, "looking suspicious", etc. etc. etc.). Police in Greenwich, CT don't stop people for every time they have legal cause. Police in poor, black neighborhoods do. The rate at which police use these pre-textual reasons to stop black people is just too high. The rate at which pre-textual stops escalate into violence is maddening. 

 

Yes, and base on that assumption, it would seem blacks are not disproportionately killed by the police.

post #4177 of 6082
The cops didn't profile this guy. They had been called because he was brandishing a gun.
post #4178 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post


Profiling is innate. All animals do it. Black Americans, especially those dressed and behaving in a certain manner, will continue to be considered more dangerous as long as 13% of the population is committing half of all murders. Media shaming can't change human nature.

 

My point is really that you are over-simplifying cause and effect here. It's easy to say, "Cops are more violent toward black people because black people are more violent toward society," but that's not good for much beyond giving cops an excuse. This can't be about blame or excuses. It has to be about building the society we actually want to live in. In order to do that, we have to be very critical of our own biases, and dig deep to understand root causes.

 

You say that black Americans commit a disproportionately high percent of murders. Why is that happening? Do the murders committed by black Americans look the same as the murders committed by white Americans? If not, how are they different? Is it really that black Americans commit more crime, or is it that poor Americans commit more crime and blacks are disproportionately poor?

 

There are a lot more questions to ask, and few easy answers. The point is this: when we make excuses, however valid, normalize behavior and in doing so perpetuate the broken society in which we live. In order to start working toward improving society, we have to be willing to say, "This is wrong. The world should be this way. Let's figure out how to fix it."

post #4179 of 6082
While you were debating the merits of Sterling shooting, another AA man was shot and killed during a routine traffic stop. I'm starting to lose track of which case I am supposed to be outraged over
post #4180 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

Is it really that black Americans commit more crime, or is it that poor Americans commit more crime and blacks are disproportionately poor?

This is an old and tired and utterly unsupported claim, especially for violent crime.
post #4181 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

The cops didn't profile this guy. They had been called because he was brandishing a gun.

We got a little off subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

You say that black Americans commit a disproportionately high percent of murders. Why is that happening?

My opinion? Generational dependence on government, out-of-wedlock birthrate over 70%, high school drop out rate, lack of cultural role models in their community, decades of relentless propaganda that convinces parts of their community that nothing is their fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

Is it really that black Americans commit more crime, or is it that poor Americans commit more crime and blacks are disproportionately poor?

How many poor white communities have murder rates similar to that of Chicago, Detroit or Baltimore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

The point is this: when we make excuses, however valid, normalize behavior and in doing so perpetuate the broken society

See above. Making excuses is partly responsible for people refusing to take responsibility for their communities.
post #4182 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltskin View Post

While you were debating the merits of Sterling shooting, another AA man was shot and killed during a routine traffic stop. I'm starting to lose track of which case I am supposed to be outraged over

Unlike the gun-brandishing pedophile Alton, this Minnesota traffic stop killing seems like an actual outrage.

Don't expect any nuance from the incontinent activists, though.
post #4183 of 6082
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

How many poor white communities have murder rates similar to that of Chicago, Detroit or Baltimore?

We don't have many poor white communities with similar urban densities to those cities.

Mostly because we don't have decades of racist housing policy that created dense, poor, white communities.

If you go back to when we had immigrant shanty towns filled with poor white immigrants...then yes...there were poor white communities with awful crime rates.
post #4184 of 6082
As if "urban density" forced people to murder each other.
post #4185 of 6082
well there must be something to it as well, most areas with highest murder rates anywhere in the world are urban, at least those known ones.
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