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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 271

post #4051 of 6078
That sounds nice, but none of it is true. The "war on drugs" and its focus on black neighborhoods was a RESPONSE to out of control crime, not the cause. The result has been historic low crime rates.



Not to mention that, notwithstanding whatever propaganda you might have read, very few people in prison are there for drug possession.

Guess how many people are in prison right now in the US for drug possession? A million? 500,000?

Actually it's about 60,000, give or take. An entire generation my ass.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs

And the majority of them are habitual criminals who finally had the book thrown at them because they were public nuisances. Drug offenses were chosen for prosecution because they're easy to prove.
post #4052 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

That sounds nice, but none of it is true. The "war on drugs" and its focus on black neighborhoods was a RESPONSE to out of control crime, not the cause. The result has been historic low crime rates.

 

Somehow the lines on that graph don't look like they are at historic lows...

post #4053 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

Somehow the lines on that graph don't look like they are at historic lows...

The other interesting thing there is that the crime rate has dropped by~50%, but we're still incarcerating people at the same rate as at the peak.
post #4054 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Not to mention that, notwithstanding whatever propaganda you might have read, very few people in prison are there for drug possession.

Guess how many people are in prison right now in the US for drug possession? A million? 500,000?

Actually it's about 60,000, give or take. An entire generation my ass.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs

And the majority of them are habitual criminals who finally had the book thrown at them because they were public nuisances. Drug offenses were chosen for prosecution because they're easy to prove.

 

I'm pretty sure that Gibonious said "drug crimes," not "drug possession." The "propaganda" also is generally for drug-related offenses, not simply drug possession.

 

In 2014, 50.1% of federal inmates were in prison for drug-related crimes. There were 192,663 inmates, so let's call that about 96,000.

In 2014, 15.7% of state inmates were in prison for drug-related crimes. There were 1.325 million inmates, so let's call that a little over 200,000.

 

So, the number in prison for drug-related offenses in 2014 was about 300,000. Of course, the number will be lower if the statistics are only for possession.

 

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p14.pdf

post #4055 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

That sounds nice, but none of it is true. The "war on drugs" and its focus on black neighborhoods was a RESPONSE to out of control crime, not the cause. The result has been historic low crime rates.
It's not exactly a proven case that increased incarceration was what caused the decrease in crime over the last two decades.
Quote:
Not to mention that, notwithstanding whatever propaganda you might have read, very few people in prison are there for drug possession.

Guess how many people are in prison right now in the US for drug possession? A million? 500,000?

Actually it's about 60,000, give or take. An entire generation my ass.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs

Where'd you pull that number from? The site has
Quote:
The most serious offense for 208,000 of the 1,325,305 people in the US sentenced to state facilities at the end of 2013 was a conviction involving illegal drugs. That represents 15% of all sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction. - See more at: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Race_and_Prison#sthash.Wp1Eqdt0.dpuf

If you look other places, you can find quotes as high as 60% of federal prisoners were for drugs on top of the 15% for the state population.

Something like 1/6 blacks have been incarcerated for drug related crimes. That's not literally "an entire generation," but it's a heavy influence. There's also a major tie-in to gang violence and the drug trade.


It's too simplistic to act like ending the War on Drugs would fix crime in the US, or fix the black community. But unless we want to just write off that 10% of our society, it seems necessary to consider why we got to that point.
post #4056 of 6078
I heard there's less crime now because of abortion on demand.
post #4057 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post

Somehow the lines on that graph don't look like they are at historic lows...

When someone refers to today's "historic" low crime rates, they mean historically significant or the lowest in recent history. Today's crime rates are all the more remarkable because of the demographic changes since the '60s, not to mention the higher rates of reporting for many crimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

The other interesting thing there is that the crime rate has dropped by~50%, but we're still incarcerating people at the same rate as at the peak.
Because the people who are incarcerated aren't out committing crimes? When recidivism rates are 60% or more in just three years, how can you deny it? And that's just the ones who get caught!
Quote:
Originally Posted by zalb916 View Post

I'm pretty sure that Gibonious said "drug crimes," not "drug possession." The "propaganda" also is generally for drug-related offenses, not simply drug possession.
[...]
So, the number in prison for drug-related offenses in 2014 was about 300,000. Of course, the number will be lower if the statistics are only for possession.

He also said "an entire generation," and I can only assume Gibonious wouldn't suggest that entire generations of black people are drug dealers. Surely he was referring to the argument that drug use rather than drug possession is targeted, given the often repeated claim that blacks and whites use drugs at the same [self-reported] rate.

And, besides, that statistic is, IIRC, for the "most serious" charge the person is convicted for. It doesn't mean they didn't commit other crimes, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Something like 1/6 blacks have been incarcerated for drug related crimes. That's not literally "an entire generation," but it's a heavy influence. There's also a major tie-in to gang violence and the drug trade.

It's too simplistic to act like ending the War on Drugs would fix crime in the US, or fix the black community. But unless we want to just write off that 10% of our society, it seems necessary to consider why we got to that point.

I assume you've seen zalb's post so I don't need to respond to the bit about distribution versus possession. So your argument is just for legalization -- you think that if we looked the other way to rampant drug dealing in black communities, that the men wouldn't commit other crimes?

As to the question of "how did we get here," isn't that obvious? Again, I think the history pretty clearly shows that the drug war followed the rise in crime, not caused it.
post #4058 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Because the people who are incarcerated aren't out committing crimes? When recidivism rates are 60% or more in just three years, how can you deny it? And that's just the ones who get caught!
I wasn't denying anything. It's a pretty simple observation that we're incarcerating a substantially higher fraction of people who commit crimes than we used to.

I don't know how any American can be comfortable with the fact that 1% of our population is in prison or that we have 20% of the world's prison population and spend. Especially in light of that whole "historically low crime rates," seems like we might want to look at the evidence for whether those policies are working and exactly what effects they're having on society.

Quote:
So your argument is just for legalization -- you think that if we looked the other way to rampant drug dealing in black communities, that the men wouldn't commit other crimes?

As to the question of "how did we get here," isn't that obvious? Again, I think the history pretty clearly shows that the drug war followed the rise in crime, not caused it.

The history of crime in poor black neighborhoods didn't just start in 1980 though. There's all kinds of factors that ended up with decayed urban cores full of blacks who commit more crime. Housing policy, focusing money on developing the suburbs, even stuff like which neighborhoods had highways run through them. So we developed a ghetto system, that led to a crime explosion, we clamp down on that, and now we've got a permanent underclass in a perpetuating cycle.


Europe's got this problem with Muslim ghettoes, but we built our own home-grown underclass. It doesn't seem terribly good for society to just write off that many people, and considering how we got there (including things like the consequences of drug enforcement) seems necessary to navigate any path out.


edit: and sure, individually, the people committing crimes are still responsible for their own actions and deserve to be held accountable. But that's pretty limiting policy at the national level.
post #4059 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post


and sure, individually, the people committing crimes are still responsible for their own actions and deserve to be held accountable. But that's pretty limiting policy at the national level.

The current administration agrees with you wholeheartedly,

Feds Order Colleges to Stop Checking Criminal/School Discipline History Because it Discriminates Against Minorities

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2016/05/feds-order-colleges-stop-checking-criminalschool-discipline-history-discriminates-minorities/
Quote:
Years ago the administration tried slamming the private sector with a ban on job applicant background checks by claiming that they discriminate against all minority candidates, not just ex-cons. The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the federal agency that enforces the nation’s workplace discrimination laws, wasted taxpayer dollars suing companies for checking criminal histories asserting that it violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. The apparent intent was to discourage other businesses from checking criminal histories out of fear of getting sued by the government, but it didn’t quite work out that way. A federal judge eventually blasted the EEOC’s claims, calling them laughable, distorted, cherry-picked, worthless and an egregious example of scientific dishonesty. Of interesting note is that the EEOC conducts criminal background checks as a condition of employment.

When will people realize that everything discriminates against minorities?
post #4060 of 6078
Cop in Freddie Gray trial acquitted on all counts. A few points scored for the integrity of legal system (it's still a net negative given the prior proceedings). Need to read the whole thing when I get the time.

http://legalinsurrection.com/2016/05/freddie-gray-trial-verdict-officer-edward-nero-not-guilty/#more-172343
post #4061 of 6078
So this was only one of the 5 people who are being charged. And not the one with the most serious offense - this officer was only misdemeanors, two others have manslaughter, and one has murder.

So I guess the lowest on the totem pole got off.
post #4062 of 6078
Vacationing mom heckled, tackled, and shackled, then charged with child abuse for letting 11 year old drive a golf cart on posh Bald Head Island.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/gone-viral/os-mom-child-abuse-golf-cart-20160523-story.html
post #4063 of 6078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

Vacationing mom heckled, tackled, and shackled, then charged with child abuse and mansplained to for letting 11 year old drive a golf cart on posh Bald Head Island.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/gone-viral/os-mom-child-abuse-golf-cart-20160523-story.html

FTFY. You forgot the worst part.
post #4064 of 6078

Louisiana will make it a hate crime to kill a cop.  I guess they'll keep the body locked up for 5 years after they execute the person.

 

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2016/05/louisiana_cops_hate_crime.html

post #4065 of 6078
Lulz. Like a cop killer is going to live through the arrest?
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