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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 213

post #3181 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nil View Post

The outright thuggery from police unions have done more to turn me against unions than anything else. Now if only all those anti-union Conservatives would turn against police unions also, which of course, they won't. Spineless scum, the lot of them.

Nothing frustrates me more than selective white knighting.
post #3182 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nil View Post

The outright thuggery from police unions have done more to turn me against unions than anything else. Now if only all those anti-union Conservatives would turn against police unions also, which of course, they won't. Spineless scum, the lot of them.


Nice job painting everyone with the same brush 

post #3183 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nil View Post

The outright thuggery from police unions have done more to turn me against unions than anything else. Now if only all those anti-union Conservatives would turn against police unions also, which of course, they won't. Spineless scum, the lot of them.

The tone deafness from the NYC police union after the Garner killing was incredible. He managed to turn the police into the "real" victims, viciously assaulted by the mayor and the press. Unquestioned loyalty and unlimited funding are apparently the due of the police. And, by god, we should be thankful that they reign to protect us and not ask too many questions about their methods.


My county had a widespread disability fraud problem in the police. It was an open secret. Cops would "get injured," get a 2/3rds pension for life (tax free), then go get another job. It accounted for more than half of all retirees. The union fought tooth and nail against any reform to the system and the gutless administration wouldn't stand up to them until the public started voting people out. God knows what other kinds of corruption they get away with.
post #3184 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

The tone deafness from the NYC police union after the Garner killing was incredible. He managed to turn the police into the "real" victims, viciously assaulted by the mayor and the press. Unquestioned loyalty and unlimited funding are apparently the due of the police. And, by god, we should be thankful that they reign to protect us and not ask too many questions about their methods.


My county had a widespread disability fraud problem in the police. It was an open secret. Cops would "get injured," get a 2/3rds pension for life (tax free), then go get another job. It accounted for more than half of all retirees. The union fought tooth and nail against any reform to the system and the gutless administration wouldn't stand up to them until the public started voting people out. God knows what other kinds of corruption they get away with.

It's why I keep saying public unions should be illegal as they are text book examples of moral hazard.
post #3185 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

The tone deafness from the NYC police union after the Garner killing was incredible. He managed to turn the police into the "real" victims, viciously assaulted by the mayor and the press. Unquestioned loyalty and unlimited funding are apparently the due of the police. And, by god, we should be thankful that they reign to protect us and not ask too many questions about their methods.


My county had a widespread disability fraud problem in the police. It was an open secret. Cops would "get injured," get a 2/3rds pension for life (tax free), then go get another job. It accounted for more than half of all retirees. The union fought tooth and nail against any reform to the system and the gutless administration wouldn't stand up to them until the public started voting people out. God knows what other kinds of corruption they get away with.

It's why I keep saying public unions should be illegal as they are text book examples of moral hazard.


I agree quite unlike banks or energy companies or fast food chains or agribusiness,or auto manufactures or pharmaceutical companies or any of those other high grounded paragons of morality

post #3186 of 6234
Teachers unions are just as bad. Perhaps they don't kill anybody, but they do a lot of damage to the public.
post #3187 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post


I agree quite unlike banks or energy companies or fast food chains or agribusiness,or auto manufactures or pharmaceutical companies or any of those other high grounded paragons of morality

It's a shame none of these examples contain moral hazard or your snark would be apropos. Here, read something from a law review: https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/ilr/pdf/vol45p413.pdf

Or this: http://www.chicagonow.com/interesting-chicago/2015/05/chicagos-pension-crisis-and-the-silence-of-the-unions/

Or this: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/public-sector-unions-and-moral-hazard/article/134357
post #3188 of 6234
Well, aside from the benefits of corporate status and limited liability per se, there's certainly an argument to be made that the folks who manage banks, energy companies, etc. illustrate quite well the notion of moral hazard.
post #3189 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Well, aside from the benefits of corporate status and limited liability per se, there's certainly an argument to be made that the folks who manage banks, energy companies, etc. illustrate quite well the notion of moral hazard.

It's a stretch to frame it as such, the events have allowed even this stretch are very recent, and are not inherent in the paradigm. Quite clearly it is with politicians cutting public unions sweetheart deals going back to Tammany Hall.
post #3190 of 6234
Failure on the part of the board of directors to act in the long-term interests of shareholders by properly setting comp and incentives for senior management in banking is pretty well documented. Numerous examples of moral hazard or agency risk. ie cant take Lehman away from englade's arg.
post #3191 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirReveller View Post

Failure on the part of the board of directors to act in the long-term interests of shareholders by properly setting comp and incentives for senior management in banking is pretty well documented. Numerous examples of moral hazard or agency risk. ie cant take Lehman away from englade's arg.

But failure of a board is not indicative of an inherently dubious relationship. And actually Lehman folks paid a price.
post #3192 of 6234
post #3193 of 6234

That's a pretty big stretch. I would claim that's more criminal malfeasance. You're going down a slippery slope of constructing an argument that will reduce to any decision an employer makes that in some way negatively impacts an employee is moral hazard.
post #3194 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

But failure of a board is not indicative of an inherently dubious relationship. And actually Lehman folks paid a price.

Do we need matt to give us a No True Scotsman ruling? smile.gif
You're right that there's an inherent challenge -- call it conflict of interest for ease of reference -- in public employee unions contributing to elections that isn't present (at least in the same way) in the private corporate setting. But if the issue is moral hazard, that definitely exists without any stretching. And it's most certainly baked into the paradigm. Personal liability (both in the strict legal/civil sense and more generally) for misfeasance or malfeasance by corporate management and directors isn't remotely commensurate to the corresponding risks of harm. That's exactly what moral hazard is about.
post #3195 of 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Do we need matt to give us a No True Scotsman ruling? smile.gif
You're right that there's an inherent challenge -- call it conflict of interest for ease of reference -- in public employee unions contributing to elections that isn't present (at least in the same way) in the private corporate setting. But if the issue is moral hazard, that definitely exists without any stretching. And it's most certainly baked into the paradigm. Personal liability (both in the strict legal/civil sense and more generally) for misfeasance or malfeasance by corporate management and directors isn't remotely commensurate to the corresponding risks of harm. That's exactly what moral hazard is about.

But they pay the price by job loss, possible litigation, possible incarceration (Enron, anyone?), possible career ruin. There's distinct risk to their actions. A liberal politician and a public union have about zero risk...unless, of course, we're talking about Detroit where the crows finally came home to roost.
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