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WTF over-zealous police? - Page 199

post #2971 of 6075
Probable cause for an arrest is a different concept (though obviously sometimes interrelated) to the question of force or technique used to make the arrest. I don't know why you would expect to see the probable cause in a video of the arrest. For all we know, the hotel manager called 911 and said "[T]here's that guy that's ripping off our customers again. He's loitering at the door..."

And as to the force used, for all we know, last time when they tried to arrest the guy they thought Blake was, he -- employing the agility and speed of a professional athlete (or maybe just an average person) -- swiftly eluded the uniformed cop who approached him and asked him if he'd please come along.

I don't see how you can draw any solid conclusions from the information so far presented.
post #2972 of 6075
For what it's worth, I agree with Ataturk with respect to the distimction he draws at the outset.
We can never everything of course, but that hardly means we can't draw tentative conclusions based on the available evidence. Oncology v. Episiotomies amd all that. There's certainly nothing I see in that video (or in the purported facts appearing in the few articles and posts I've seen) that come close to justifying that use of force.
post #2973 of 6075
This incident reminded of something kind of similar that happened to me when I was kid. My first job was at a Bakery, and those motherfuckers start early. So I would run like 2 miles starting at 3:30 am to be there before 4. This one time though as I was running a regular car pulled up next to me out of nowhere, and I thought for sure I was gonna get jumped, so I was getting ready to fight. Some white boy jumped out though, and got within 10 feet, and pulled his badge out right away, and asked why I was running? Explained I was going to work, and that was that. Again he identified himself immediately, and for damn sure wasn't trying to grapple.
post #2974 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

For what it's worth, I agree with Ataturk with respect to the distimction he draws at the outset.
We can never everything of course, but that hardly means we can't draw tentative conclusions based on the available evidence. Oncology v. Episiotomies amd all that. There's certainly nothing I see in that video (or in the purported facts appearing in the few articles and posts I've seen) that come close to justifying that use of force.

That's what I'm talking about. It seems some folks are saying not a single one of us are safe from just standing there, presenting no signs of violence or harm to others, and have plainsclothes cops that do not identify themselves as police, run up, tackle us and grapple us to the ground without any provocation. God forbid someone should fight back against this stranger as we all know the imperative: get home safe no matter what it takes. I really do not want to live in a society where this is apparently okay.
post #2975 of 6075
Unfortunately there's rarely time for a jury trial before the arrest. So cops have to work on imperfect knowledge.

And if your long-lost evil twin just robbed a bank and the cops who were chasing him come on you instead, well, how do you think that should go?

I feel like this thread is moving in circles because I'm sure I've said this many times, the relevant for evaluating police mistakes is not "what did the person who was wrongly arrested do to deserve it?" but "did the cop act reasonably on the information he had?" If the answer's yes it doesn't even really matter that he turned out to be wrong.
post #2976 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Unfortunately there's rarely time for a jury trial before the arrest. So cops have to work on imperfect knowledge.

And if your long-lost evil twin just robbed a bank and the cops who were chasing him come on you instead, well, how do you think that should go?

I feel like this thread is moving in circles because I'm sure I've said this many times, the relevant for evaluating police mistakes is not "what did the person who was wrongly arrested do to deserve it?" but "did the cop reasonably rely on the information he had?" If the answer's yes it doesn't even really matter that he turned out to be wrong.

Dead bodies are fine as long as he got home safe.

I think law abiding citizens should feel that they will not be mugged by law enforcement apparently at whim.
post #2977 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Dead bodies are fine as long as he got home safe.

I think law abiding citizens should feel that they will not be mugged by law enforcement apparently at whim.

Ataturk ends up talking past everyone on this topic, because the one thing he's willing to discuss is "Is the cop's behavior legal or not." Most of us are much less concerned about the legality (which can be changed) than what's right and makes the kind of society we want to live in. That's especially true for this kind of "reasonable behavior" standard, which is created and implemented by law enforcement.

Tackling a suspect identity thief to the ground without warning or identifying yourself may be legal in the eyes of the justice system. I'd assume most of us don't particularly like the idea of living in a country where that's considered reasonable, and would like to see the laws changed to reflect that.


There was an article out today noting that 12% of NYC police are responsible for 100% of the citizen complaints. The guy that tackled Blake has had four (IIRC) previous complaints against him. It's not a coincidence that the same guys keep finding themselves in situations where they judge they "need" to use force against citizens who end up being innocent. There is clearly room for changes in policy to reduce the frequency and severity of use of force in the police force.
post #2978 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Ataturk ends up talking past everyone on this topic, because the one thing he's willing to discuss is "Is the cop's behavior legal or not." Most of us are much less concerned about the legality (which can be changed) than what's right and makes the kind of society we want to live in. That's especially true for this kind of "reasonable behavior" standard, which is created and implemented by law enforcement.

Tackling a suspect identity thief to the ground without warning or identifying yourself may be legal in the eyes of the justice system. I'd assume most of us don't particularly like the idea of living in a country where that's considered reasonable, and would like to see the laws changed to reflect that.


There was an article out today noting that 12% of NYC police are responsible for 100% of the citizen complaints. The guy that tackled Blake has had four (IIRC) previous complaints against him. It's not a coincidence that the same guys keep finding themselves in situations where they judge they "need" to use force against citizens who end up being innocent. There is clearly room for changes in policy to reduce the frequency and severity of use of force in the police force.

The 12% should be locked in a cell together with no food and only forks and be forced to shout "stop resisting" for hours on end.
post #2979 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post

Ataturk ends up talking past everyone on this topic, because the one thing he's willing to discuss is "Is the cop's behavior legal or not." Most of us are much less concerned about the legality (which can be changed) than what's right and makes the kind of society we want to live in.

Given that I was replying to a post that said, "hey you lawyers, what about the probable cause?" I think I'd question that statement.
Quote:
That's especially true for this kind of "reasonable behavior" standard, which is created and implemented by law enforcement.

You mean created and policed by the courts. Created by activist, left-wing courts, to be precise.
Quote:
Tackling a suspect identity thief to the ground without warning or identifying yourself may be legal in the eyes of the justice system. I'd assume most of us don't particularly like the idea of living in a country where that's considered reasonable, and would like to see the laws changed to reflect that.

I imagine "most of us" outside this thread would agree that it depends on the particular circumstances, and that letting criminals get away just because they can run faster than cops is a terrible way to run a country.
Quote:
There was an article out today noting that 12% of NYC police are responsible for 100% of the citizen complaints. The guy that tackled Blake has had four (IIRC) previous complaints against him. It's not a coincidence that the same guys keep finding themselves in situations where they judge they "need" to use force against citizens who end up being innocent. There is clearly room for changes in policy to reduce the frequency and severity of use of force in the police force.

Did it happen to mention what percentage of arrests those 12% had effected? I'm going to go out on a limb and bet it didn't... How 'bout how many complaints those officers had each? An alternative headline for the data as you present it would be "only one in eight NYPD officers has ever had a complaint filed against him." And of course that's not even accounting for the fact that 99% of those complaints are groundless.

You of all people ought to recognize that a statistic like that, without context, is meaningless.
post #2980 of 6075
The thin blue line mentality allows bad cops to stay on the force. Those bad cops sully the reputations of the good cops.

To understand what cops must deal with, check out WorldStar Hip Hop. There you will see an utter lack of respect for law and order; and a disregard for the dignity of others.
post #2981 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Unfortunately there's rarely time for a jury trial before the arrest.

Oh, the strawmanity!!!!
post #2982 of 6075
^^^^

No. That's Hey Man.
post #2983 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad View Post

Oh, the strawmanity!!!!

I did write an entire post addressing this claim, so your objection is well taken.

Not!
post #2984 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

I did write an entire post addressing this claim, so your objection is well taken.

Not!


I attended that same course. I am from foreign country.
post #2985 of 6075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

The thin blue line mentality allows bad cops to stay on the force. Those bad cops sully the reputations of the good cops.

To understand what cops must deal with, check out WorldStar Hip Hop. There you will see an utter lack of respect for law and order; and a disregard for the dignity of others.


There are no good cops. The existence of bad cops proves this.
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